Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Thanks for tuning into another real estate Chicago style podcast. I as I said on previous episodes, I'm working to maintain a very high standard for the guests that we have on.
Naturally, I thought of TJ Rubin, founder and president of Fulton Grace Realty. Tj, thanks for joining us.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: It's an honor to be here. Joe. Fun.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: I appreciate that, man. One of the main reasons that I thought of you to do it, not, you know, not only because of your accomplishments and leading a very big and rapidly growing firm, but when we initially got together, we were introduced by a mutual friend outside of the real estate business and we had breakfast and you had a way of eliciting a very thoughtful conversation.
I left the breakfast feeling very inspired to get to work and I appreciate how, how thoughtful you are about the growth of your firm and about Chicago real estate. So I'm excited to have you chatting with us today.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that. I enjoyed our conversation too and look forward to this one as well.
[00:01:11] Speaker A: Good stuff, man. Well, it wouldn't be a podcast with a couple brokers without somebody's phone ringing at the beginning of it. So sorry about that.
So I'm going to start by just giving a little bit of introduction to Fulton Grace and by way of that, tj. So Fulton Grace is a national real estate brokerage and property management company operating in four states. Under TJ's leadership, Fulton Grace has exploded in the nation into one of the nation's most well respected and fastest growing residential real estate firms.
They've been featured on Inc. 5000s list for the past 10 years, which is insane. And has earned a spot on Crane's Fast 50 for the last three years. Fulton Grace has several offices around Chicago as well as Wisconsin, Florida and Arizona, employs hundreds of real estate professionals and many top producers, does thousands of transactions every year, and manages thousands of residential properties throughout Chicagoland. That is insane. What? Did I miss anything?
[00:02:12] Speaker B: I think that, I think that summed it up pretty well. It's overwhelming to, to hear it out loud, but yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary of everything so far.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: We should have, we should have recorded when we were just chatting about how we manage stress.
That's part of it. But we are starting with some rapid fire questions. So just give me answers. No explanation.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: You got it.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: If you, if you feel you have to explain something, that's fine.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: I'll try and pick one of these sometimes I might have a backup runner up answer too, but give us what I can do. Okay, sounds good.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: What did you listen to on the Way here.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Surviving El Chapo. It's about the twins who took down El Chapo. It was an awesome podcast. I think it's hosted by 50 Cent and some other podcast person, but it's an awesome podcast. I also listen to How I Built this by Guy Raz, which is an awesome podcast about people throughout the nation who have built companies and it's their stories from the startup, talking about everything from their successes and failures and everything like that.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: Pretty apropos for you. Leading a big growing.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, you get lessons out of Surviving El Chapel.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah, some days. That's how Chicago real estate feels.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: It sure does.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: Favorite coffee shop in Chicago.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: I would say that Floral in Lincoln park is excellent. They got a really nice upstairs. We've done a lot of business there and. And a close runner up might be Daisies in Logan Square. Been there a lot recently. Yeah, it's a. It's a good coffee shop and also great for dinner and whatnot. But daisies and floral are pretty good.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Go to's Chicago coffee shops are just like. Yeah. Part of the fabric of the city.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: And before I had. Before I had character in them. Absolutely. I would try and you know, as many as I could, you know, coffee shop to coffee shop and you really get a good flavor of the city through.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Especially when coffee shop going to bars as much. You know, it's like you try to. You try to like get out and about a little bit.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Pizza place.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: I would say Fat Chris is probably my favorite. My kids are art of pizza or tortoises. But I think Fat Chris Detroit style pan pizza is pretty solid. If you haven't had that, it's up on Foster, I think.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Okay. I have not had.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: It's good.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: Shout out to the Detroit Style Pizza Chicago real estate podcast. Okay.
Are you an early bird or a night owl?
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Early bird, without question. I get up early and I probably can't keep my eyes open past 10:00pm p.m. yeah, same.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: We're just a couple lame dads.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Best under the radar Chicago restaurant.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Probably Ada Street. My wife and I went there recently. It's on. I think I forget what street, but it's across the Home Depot on North Avenue.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Not on Ada.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Awesome. It might be on Ada. Ada Street. So there you go. Ada Street's a really good one. Il Porcelaino is pretty good. Italian. We just went there recently. It's a good. Good spot too.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: You cool?
What's a word that your colleagues would use to describe you?
[00:05:19] Speaker B: Well, I would say responsive. I'm quite a responsive guy and reasonable. I like to think I'm good at the art of compromise. Obviously in my position there a lot of different things to deal with, whether it be conflict or negotiation. So I would hope to think reasonable.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Okay, good ones.
What's your favorite intersection of this city?
[00:05:47] Speaker B: Gotta say North Damon and Milwaukee. I work at our Wicker park office.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: I had it for you.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, Wicker park is vibrant. It is a really fun neighborhood. That whole stretch of Milwaukee Avenue from North Avenue to Ashland and Milwaukee is outstanding and it's fun to be our city playground every day.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: So this is the third podcast that we're filming and that's the second shout out to that really said the same thing.
He was developing a deal right there though, so I don't know whether he was just.
But you know, it's interesting because that intersection and I think that stretch Milwaukee Avenue in general a couple years ago, I feel like was kind of going through a little bit of a transition where like maybe some of the initial occupants and businesses that were there had kind of run their course, you know, from when Wicker Park, I don't know, not initially established or that last wave. And then I feel like it's so vibrant again. And if you go stand on that intersection, it's a six way intersection, the train's right there. There's like a great mix of local and national. Yeah, it's impossible not to feel the energy of the city right there.
But it's just funny that if you're not there there, you could read headlines or look at vacancy reports or whatever and find your way into a negative opinion about it.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I, I mean I, I couldn't believe in the neighborhood, you know, anymore. I, I had a front row seat during COVID That was a really big shift on Milwaukee Avenue because Covid, during Milwaukee Avenue a lot of places got hit really hard. And even when the lootings, you know, happened during around that time period, Milwaukee Avenue was pretty hard. So it took a pretty big hit. And then ultimately it's recovered, you know, quite a bit since that time. And even during the lootings, you know, I remember almost every restaurant and, and business was boarded up. And I can vividly remember the mornings where all you could hear was the hammering of the, of the boards. But you know, it really came together and it's such an amazing neighborhood. Great food, retail, it's, it's an awesome place.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Stronger for it. Absolutely.
Last rapid fire plug. An upand cominging Chicago real estate person that's hustling all right. Like, deserves some recognition.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: All right. A couple of shout outs. So I'm going to do one within our company and one outside of our company. I think that's only fair. One gentleman that I've worked with for a really long time, Jake McClure. He is an outstanding real estate broker and a super smart, business savvy fella. He really knows everything from multifamily to traditional brokerage. Very powerful in sales and rentals. And each year I've watched him grow quite a bit. One plug outside the business, I would say I am friendly with and admire Shane Rackman over at Cross Street.
He's a really good guy and a really. He seems to have a really good head on his shoulders and a smart business fellow.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I think he's going to. He's going to be a kind of figure in Chicago real estate for a long time. I know his dad, and his dad was a little bit of a tangent, but when I started at Marcus and Millichap, he was one of the senior guys there. And one of the first deals that I ever did, Steve went out of his way to make sure the new guy had a shot and, you know, and learned from it. And, you know, I was representing the buyer in a competitive deal, and I feel like him and the client that we were representing, I don't know if they found it cool that, like, somebody new is involved in hustling or it's just. They felt like it was the right thing to do. But I never forgot how he treated me, a new guy who, you know, he didn't know would be a broker for a long time in the city, still did all the right things. And, yeah, Shane obviously got some of that, too.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: For sure. Great family altogether.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: Cole, who's going to be one of your upcoming guests. I hear Mike Tucker's a great guy also.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: Good family.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Good stuff, man. All right, so you are a former litigation attorney. Yep. Turned real estate fella. I was gonna say firm mogul, but you could say fella if you're gonna be. So tell us a little bit about growing up. Lead us to kind of how you, you know, you found your way through law to the real estate.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I was a litigation attorney. I went to school in Nashville. I went to Vanderbilt law School. I moved Chicago to be a lawyer, and I was a litigation attorney for about three years, at which time, late 2008, early 2009, I lost my job in the downturn of the economy, and I could continue being a Litigation attorney. But at that time, I was actually, you know, I actually. We come talk about Mike Zucker. I bought my first apartment building while I was an attorney, and it was a 4 flat in Logan Square. And I bought it from Mike. And we didn't know each other at the time, but I was a landlord by night, attorney by day. So after work, I'd go meet the plumber, I'd go rent my apartment. And, you know, while I was renting one of my apartments, I came across a leasing agent who said, you know, you know, if you rent somebody else's apartment, you could make a month's rent. And I was like, how about that? I'm. Every day I'm going, you know, to work and coming to do this. Maybe I could do this for other people. So before I lost my job, I was moonlighting as a rental agent. I'd go to work, go to court, and then after work, I'd go in my little suit to these dingy apartments and try and rent them out for other landlords who had jobs and wanted to rent their apartment. And so I would rent their apartment out. And I got a lot of satisfaction out of that. I was working a lot. But when I lost my job, you know, I still had a couple of rental clients. And I remember going home on the L train that day, and I was literally in tears. You know, I went to a nice law school, always got good grades, and I had never really gotten fired or lost my job from anything. And so when I went home, you know, I kind of composed myself, and I was talking, you know, to my wife at the time, and she's like, what are you going to do? I was like, you know, I think this is going to sound nuts, but I think I'm going to keep renting apartments. And she's like, you're a lawyer. What are you talking about? And I was like, I really like this. I'm going to start renting apartments. And, you know, I can always be a lawyer. And I still have my active law license today. I hope I don't need to fall back on that. I like this too much. But look at the time I started renting apartments and. And the one thing I learned very quickly about being in the real estate business is you're building your book of business based on relationships. And I really enjoyed cultivating relationships. And a couple of key relationships I made early on is back in 2008, 2009, people couldn't sell much, right? So I backed my way into a couple of Irish developers and they had these condos that they couldn't sell. And I struck up a nice relationship with them and ultimately started renting, you know, their condos. And I got very busy renting their apartments. And as time went on, I gained steam and needed a little help renting their stuff. And then I got a couple of more clients through them. And, you know, I learned very early on that this business was about creating and maintaining positive relationships. And what was fun to me is I could start to see that you could monetize these relationships. And being able to monetize relationships in that fashion was something that I was never exposed to. I never took any classes in entrepreneurship or business or anything like that, but I was learning firsthand on how to develop these types of relationships, you know, and obviously, fast forward today, this is something we preach to every real estate broker about the importance of your sphere or your database or creating and maintaining relationships. But that's, you know, everything in this world. You and I are sitting here because of a relationship we've developed and you never know where opportunities are going to come from.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: And I think there was a lot that you said there that I want to, I want to kind of dig into a little further. One thing that you said that stuck out with me is, is monetizing relationships. Because I think you could think about that as you could take a position as if that was, it's not a selfish monetization. I think that that's what I want to dive into. It's.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: When you are building relationships with, with other folks who are aggressively growing their business and who have goals of their own, it's a two way street of monetizing. You want them to monetize you too? My best clients for the last 14 years or whatever, we've made a lot of money together.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: You know, it's not that I make money off them, it's I make money with them, you know, like, want them to do so well. I think that that's like people are afraid of monetizing a relationship because they think it would be, it could be to the detriment. But if you're, you know, if you're hustling and you do the, you know, you're a good person and you have good values, then it's not that it's like you're helping somebody else advance their business and making money along the way is. Yeah. Great byproduct.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: I think that's a really good point. You know, there might be some negative connotations about monetizing the relationship but really all when it boils down to you're trying to create success for one another. Right. Unable to create success for you as a business partner, it doesn't work. Right. So I, I, at a very early stage, I met as many people as I could and I tried the, the givers gain mentality and being able to give them, whether it be referral to other relationships, whether referrals to business or whatnot. And that ultimately found my way to very successful partnerships with people that I could help create success for. Because if I can't do anything for you or create success for your position, there's not much that I can really expect. Back to you.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Well, dude, you don't have hundreds of people working with you and for you under your umbrella. If you're not doing what you're saying, if you're not truly valuing relationships, you can't talk about relationships as a buzzword. If you're not.
I mean, the proof is in the pudding. You have a very quickly growing firm and a lot of folks who have stayed with you for a long time.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah, our retention's been astounding. But as my role has evolved over the year from representing clients to more of an administrative role and supporting our growth initiatives, my clients are our agents and our employees. Because I don't haven't produced in a decade, but I'm producing through them. And absolutely, you know, we have a very simple mantra at our property management company and our real estate brokerage. I want it to be the best place to work in Chicago. I want it to be the best place to work, Chicago and every other markets we service. Because if we can create an environment where it's truly the best place to work, people have a, a certain rally cry around your vision, around your initiatives, around your growth. And, and in, in terms of this creating success, we have to create success for our agents. That's the partnership. We want to be able to provide enough value to not only our agents, but our property managers to have them want to give back their all to the business.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: What, what are some values or what are some things that you focus on to make it the best place?
[00:17:20] Speaker B: That's a really good.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: You got a foosball table in the room. That is a really good question at the Keurig machine.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: That's a really good question. We do have a Keurig, which is loved by many of our folks. Look, I would say going back to almost my cheeky quick fire answer about responsive and reasonable, I think it's really important that a leadership team Listens and leads, you know, by listening and compromise and getting feedback from your agents, from your employees on how to shape a better company. Because I think if you bury your head in the sand, do only what you think is right, and don't listen to the outside feedback, I don't think you're on the right path. I think we've created an environment of collaboration and free thought and speech to where we can drive the ship with everybody's input. So everything from support, marketing, education, technology, culture, I think with those five things, if we can focus on that, as well as the feedback from everybody in our community so that they feel like they have a fingerprint on the trajectory.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: That's what really creates retention.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: You know, and obviously creating a place where they're making enough money or more than they did in the years past, and they see a road to them hitting their financial goals and being happy where they're doing it, you know, that's a pretty quick road to retention.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that's an awesome answer.
Something that I observe, I've observed in you and getting to know you a little bit, and that I think that you illustrated with the conversation of your transition from being an attorney to, you know, being a real estate person is you have a. You have a good balance of being. You show humility while being confident.
There's a lot of ego that comes in real estate business.
But I feel like the. The realization that you liked doing the rental work while you were an attorney. Yeah. You know, some people think that they're above a certain job or a type of job is not, like, not as sexy as something else or whatever.
You. The business of renting apartments and then, you know, also doing the sales, like, just understanding that you liked it and going for it, I think takes a. It takes a certain realization, and it takes that humility. But you also have the confidence to make yourself extremely successful by, you know, kind of pursuing that path. So how do you feel about those traits as a leader of the firm? A leader, it's one. It's one thing to do it for yourself, but how do you balance the humility and the confidence in being a leader of your firm? How's that for, like a rookie podcaster question?
[00:20:11] Speaker B: I mean, my very simple advice is just to be your true self, you know, and really double down on. On the path that you like and you want to follow and being able to shape your own future.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: What you mentioned in the real estate world, it's very.
It can be a flashy business. You know, there's a lot of noise out there with social media or messaging or, you know, so much happens in the real estate market. It's easy to get caught up in the noise on what you should be doing or should be following this path. But if you can be genuine to your, your true self and your true path, I think that's really important. And you touched on rentals. I'll tell you that. Yes, I started as a rental agent and yes, I grew a property management company out of that. But you know, in early 2000s 12, 13, 14, I really tried to shape more of a sales brokerage. And that wasn't easy to break a rental brand and be a powerful sales broker. I mean you got all the biggest names, all the national people, and how do you compete with that? And for whatever reason, that was my genuine self at the time. And I wanted to be relevant in sales brokerage, if anything, because renters become buyers, landlords become sellers, and I wanted to be able to create a full service model. But it took a really long time to shape that. And I gotta tell you, in the mid 2010s and we were starting to grow as a sales brokerage, I almost had that feeling of, you know, I was trying to wash away the rental brand and not embarrassed of it, but more insecure by it. When I was talking to sales brokers and whatnot and we were able to successfully grow a sales brand, which was really difficult. But when I reflect on all that, if I'm being true to myself, I am not embarrassed or insecure about it anymore. You know, to have the biggest rental market share in Chicago, I'm very proud of that because that leads to synergies to multifamily to traditional sales brokerages. Buyers become sellers, landlords or buyers? Buyers be, you know what I mean, Tenants become buyers, landlords also beautiful.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: You know, one of the things about being a real estate broker is can be a very long sales cycle. You get to know people for years and it takes a long time to actually see a paycheck sometimes from, you know. But the rental business can be very instant gratification. It's very like on trend with global housing trends and macro housing trends of people preferring to rent versus owners. And I just think that some folks who are you, it just, it goes with anything. It's not just one, it's not just doing rentals and then maybe wanting to do sales. I could apply it to mine. It's like selling a lot of neighborhood stuff and oh, wouldn't it be cool to sell like Downtown high rise is just kind of always, maybe this grass is greener type mentality about doing something else. But I think one of the things about being an active person in real estate in a big market like Chicago is, is maintaining a niche, maintaining a specialization, and just creating a brand and hammering it, working hard towards it. And I think you can make a great living being a rental broker. And I think it's also.
There's a lot of good things about.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: It that, yeah, look, it's excellent. But, you know, coming from that standpoint, though, I'll tell you a couple of things. First of all, you know, being a rental broker, renting apartments, I think it is important to provide them a path to become a sales broker. A lot of rental brokers want to become sales brokers, and it was important for us to create an environment where we could create success in both, you know, and the other thing about being a rental broker is, you know, going back to our relationships and monetizing relationships. All we're doing as rental brokers is offering more opportunities for more relationships. Yeah, you say quick gratification for money. I say quick opportunity to make more relationships. Because those are people in the long term that are going to become wonderful referral sources. They're going to become buyers, they're going to become important to your business. So if you're just starting out in the business or experienced even, it gives you an opportunity to create relationships and stability, you know, the diversification of that type of business model. It was no mastermind when I was setting it up, but hindsight's 20 20, and I realize now it does create a diverse foundation to what? Whatever market, you know, you're going through, people are going to move. Chicago is a great place to live. You know, people are going to want to move here, and I think if we can help facilitate the process of them finding home, whatever it may be, rent or buy, I think that's really important.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: That's awesome and not surprising. A very thoughtful answer from you. So my manager, David Goss, is an attorney, and I find him to be an invaluable resource for my business.
You know, you don't have a lot of folks who started with a legal background and got into brokerage. How do you think about your legal background?
You know, obviously you're a litigation attorney, and you. Yeah, you know, one of the. The words you use to describe yourself or that you thought your colleagues is reasonable. So obviously you're good at the conflict resolution. But what about being an attorney you think differentiates you from your Competitors running real estate companies.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Well, I would say you dismiss the conflict resolution a little too quick, because I will tell you that I would say if there's anything that I gained from experience of being a litigation attorney, it's the ability to resolve conflict before it becomes of financial hardship. You know, a lot of times I see, whether it's a landlord tenant dispute, a buyer seller dispute, an employment dispute, or something like that. I oftentimes in my real, in my litigation world saw people take, you know, a very emotional position that wasn't always the financially most smart position. And, you know, the, the, the. What's the good negotiation? Both people feel like they lost a little bit. I'm comfortable losing a little bit because I, I think it's important to resolve conflict before they come to be a really big problem. And I think that, you know, the background of seeing the ugly side of taking a moral position to the detriment of a financial position, it gives me a unique perspective. So I think mediating, you know, disputes. I think being a mediator, whether it. Whatever type of relationship it is, is probably the most powerful. I would say the very small secondary things is being able to, you know, help review or draft contracts or modify certain contracts. But I think that's so secondarily, it's. Yeah, it's so secondary to conflict resolution, which, which comes down to a relationship that has gone south. Yeah, right. And so being able to help moderate that is, Is powerful.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: I think, like resolving conflicts. You can also apply your same, the same answers. Just problem solving in general is, you know, as a real estate person or, you know, somebody who runs a real estate firm, a lot of our job is kind of being the conduit for information, but also approving the outcome through the way, you know, so, like, as something comes to your desk, make it a little bit easier, make it a little cleaner for the next person that it has to go to. And just, I think it helps the whole continuum of a transaction if you have somebody that is solving problems along the way and is looking to make other. Other people's lives easier.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: You are uniquely qualified to answer this question. So I have to ask you. But a lot of us brokers think that attorneys muck up deals with all their red ink. That's right. And attorneys think that we're more on brokers.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm not an attorney anymore, so I just want to make sure.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: So who's right?
[00:28:00] Speaker B: That's right. Look, the real estate world, beautiful, because it's almost the wild west of negotiations. You Know, when you're an attorney, you have a very rigid way of looking at things, whether it's following a code of civil procedure or following certain laws or administrative codes. But the beauty about being in the real estate business, it's almost the Wild West. And. Yeah. And you get to imagine up any type of agreement and use all of your creative thought process to. To problem solve and again, create success for both sides of the table. And I'm not saying attorneys don't do that necessarily, but there is a bit of a rigid code or procedure that attorneys will have to follow.
And. And this is just a different client representation process. Also, if you look at the way that folks get paid, we get paid when we create success. Attorneys get paid when they bill every 15 minutes. You know, it's a little bit of a. Of a disheartening background. At least when I was an attorney, it was. It was always tough to create success because let's say if you want a lawsuit for your client, your client might have said, well, I paid you too much. And if you lost a lotsuit for your client, well, you lost.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: But in the real estate world, we were paid, as you know, to create success for our clients. And when we're able to do so, we're compensated as such. And I think that's rewarding and also forces us to. To think creatively in that Wild west and negotiations.
[00:29:22] Speaker A: For the record, I have a lot of great relationships with attorneys in Chicago. Appreciate their value in deals. Excuse me. Right. Stupid broker joke.
I was. When I was reading your bio. And it touches maybe a little bit of the conversation we had before we started filming is one thing that's. I want to talk about growth maybe next. But the one thing that stood out to me is when I read that you have hundreds of agents working with you and that you guys manage thousands of sales and rental transactions. And you also, on the property management side, manage thousands of residential property. Hundreds of people, thousands of deals. Thousands of properties. Like what I. In my head, I go to all the problems that are a byproduct of that type of volume.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: You know, because you were. These can be complex deals. You know, apartment buildings can be complex assets to manage. So I'm thinking of the guy at the top of the totem pole and the type of problems that make it to your desk every day to solve. Yeah.
How do you.
You know, we could talk about how you solve them, but I'm more interested in how you manage the problem, the pressure of that, you know, keep a clear head and Sure.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: I will tell you that, you know, in order to, to manage this type operation, you know, you've heard the old saying, there's no I in team. Like having a really strong leadership team, having a really strong management staff, ones in which you can trust to make the decisions that are in the best interest of the company.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:55] Speaker B: Whether, you know, they always work out right or not, if they really have your company's best interests at heart and people who work, you can't manage this operation, you know, with one person. And I think that a huge testament goes to our wonderful leadership team who many of them have deserved and received many accolades in their own right from our managing brokers and our other leadership staff. To really be recognized as true leaders in the industry. I think that's really important. In order to scale a business, you need a strong foundation and, you know, obviously a shout out to my wife Carly. She is property manager number one. She really runs our property management department and that. And that creates this unique dynamic between us because, you know, she of course has the company's best interests at heart and she's really good at what she does. So, you know, I trust a lot of it to Carly, but not just Carly. Our property management team is. Is awesome. That is a oftentimes thankless position. And the way that they band together and really problem solve together is inspirational. Especially when there's a lot of negativity around some of these conflicts. It's amazing. So you can't do it without an amazing team. And our brokerage, I've worked with most of these people for a really, really long time and you can't do it without the trust in them.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: So you're thinking about your team when you're hiring and when you're promoting people and such.
What type of characteristics do you look for in team members when you're either, you know, thinking about bringing on a new agent or property manager or thinking about advancing somebody in their career path within Fulton Grace, because it, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of team members involved in managing the type of scale that you're doing and in growing the way that you're growing. I would think that it would be hard to balance the growth without compromising the quality of people.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. That's a really good question. I think it would depend if we're talking specific characteristics, you know, it depends on the role you're hiring for. Our brokerage and property management companies are separate. I spend most of our time dealing with the brokerage and I would Say so I don't do a lot of the direct hiring for the property managers or a good portion of our staff. But you know, if we're really looking for somebody to join our organization, I mean, they need to display a strong track record of really good efforts. You know, we want to have people who align with the vision. We want to have people who can ultimately get on board with advancing company initiatives. And we want them. You know, there's a big, not a saying, but the FG family is really thrown around a lot. You know, the FG family, the FG fam. I would say that this is really treated like a family and you really want people who are going to fit in with the culture. And you know, it's also a very good example of if you don't have somebody in that position or don't have somebody putting forth their best efforts and doesn't fit in with the FG family, it takes you back.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: It can be toxic.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Toxic and affects so many things within your organization. Alternatively, if you have somebody who's a true, you know, leader and a wonderful person like they bring so far, they bring the company so far ahead. So like, you know, and for me, getting to watch almost as an observer of our company, it's really inspiring to watch people to step up to those roles, care about it and give thoughtful feedback that isn't necessarily self serving feedback. That's feedback that creates that win win situation. Yes, for them, but also for the company. And look, I've got three kids.
This is my first kid though. Right. And you treat it like your first kid. And for me, watching this as my first kid, to see others that care about it as much as you do, to give thoughtful advice on how to advance that business, you can't ask for anything more than that. You know what I mean? That's worth more than money. That's worth more than a lot. That's worth, you know, so much because it creates this viral effect of people wanting to advance an organization.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I love the, the last sentence there. Like, you know, the, the viral effect, the energy of a group. You know, my wife and I talk about sometimes in our family, you know, like on a, you know, on a good energy day versus a bad energy day, obviously it kind of reverberates through the household. It's the same way in the office, you know, you have a couple new folks start and you see the energy that, that can breed, you know, within other people. Yeah. Works the other way too.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: So on your property management side. I live by DePaul University. Yeah. And I see your signs and all their buildings.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah, we managed DePaul's residential portfolio.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: I, you know, I see your signs all over the place, but I think, like, you manage for an institution like DePaul, I imagine there's things that maybe the process was a little bit more formal, or I imagine there's things that you learned about bidding for their business that you also can employ about the way that you manage that client relationship that adds value to your other customers and your other portfolio. Talk about just managing an insight for an institution and winning an institution's business versus, you know, managing for your typical. I'm not going to say it, mom and pop, but like, you know, just a non institutional type customer like that.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: Sure.
We have a variety of different clients, such as the ones you mentioned, that are institutional. We have folks, whether it's a very high net worth or a public profile, that have a lot of multifamily and again, just people who have maybe an individual condo unit. I will tell you one thing about, you know, creating success for your partners. They don't always have the same goals. Right. So whether it's an institutional investor or, you know, a mom pop, you know, somebody might want to position their asset to sell in a couple of years. Somebody might want you to hold onto it until they want to do, you know, something different with it. And they don't always have the same goals. So I think it's really, as with any sales process, understanding the goals of your. Your customer or potential client, clearly, DePaul specifically, they have their own agenda, but, you know, they. They have the highest of, you know, integrity and value that they want to give to their students as well. So, you know, we couldn't be more honored that they've selected us at a partner to promote that high level of integrity and customer service, to make sure their students are not just taken care of, but safe and also enjoy a good housing experience. So, again, it's really focusing on the goals of your client and making sure that ultimately you're a good fit for that. Right. We're not a good fit for everybody. Right. And you can't pretend to be.
[00:38:11] Speaker A: Well, I imagine, you know, you take some pride in an organization like DePaul, like partnering with you, because, you know, when a student goes to DePaul, they don't. They. They. They probably hardly even know that a third party manages their apartment building, you know, so for them, it's all just one brand. So DePaul's really kind of hitching their wagon to Fulton Grace. And yeah, you know, if their living experience doesn't go well, they're gonna, they're gonna apply it to their overall educational experience, for sure. You know, it's just, it's part of being a broker in general is you're always trying to advance your clients brand and success.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: You know, but with an organization like DePaul, it's even more intertwined, I think.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: Well, that one is, that one is unique because most of our clients have their anonymity preserved because the people living there don't know who owns the building. In certain other cases that we manage, such as that particular assignment, the anonymity, you know, is not there. The, the, the, the residents know the owners of the building, so you have an added level of responsibility toward ownership that's not anonymous. As with any owner, though, you know, they're going to want to protect their asset and make sure it's positioned in the best light. I don't think any owner is going to be proud of a building, you know, that looks disgusting and that the tenants don't like living there. So, you know, naturally there are a lot of, you know, the same principles to be applied, but when you lose the anonymity, it's an extra level of we know who we are, so you better not. Classes.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, you said something that I think is worth diving into a little bit more is your client doesn't always have the same goals. And I think that that can be some of the beauty of the deal in real estate.
In my business, I think of what I think when you say that is a deal sells and 99 of the market says, how did that person justify paying that price for that? It's not worth that.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: I said, well, they had a different goal, they had a different time horizon, they had a different business plan. They had, you know, there's just a Z. There's a. So many ways to answer how somebody could look at a deal. You and I could look at the same deal and look at it totally differently. Yeah. I think that's the beauty of doing business in real estate, where you have this imagination, flexibility that can come along with it. And also you just have to appreciate the different people have different objectives, they've got different return thresholds, they've got maybe a global business plan that they're adding one particular property to, and they know that they want to own it for 30 years. So it doesn't really matter what the cash flow is today. So I don't know that that's even a Question other than just something that I wanted to highlight is like, as a broker, I think you have to be flexible enough to appreciate differences of opinion, differences of having different goals.
[00:41:11] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: Back to the questions.
We have to talk about growth. I mean, we can't read, you know, we can't have somebody that's grown their firm as much as you have without talking more about it. So did you always set out to grow the firm to a particular degree or was it, was the growth a byproduct of the way that you started the firm initially?
[00:41:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say the growth is a byproduct of our team, its efforts. It's constant reinvestment into providing, you know, excellent situation for our clients. You know, it's a hard thing to look five, seven years in the future and say you want to do that. I mean, obviously you can have a vision board or business planning for that far in advance, but really I'm taking putting one foot in front of the other and just doing the best that I can every day. I will tell you that with such growth sometimes comes stretch marks. So it's always important to make sure that you have the foundation set up for that growth. Because I've seen other businesses, local or otherwise, grow really quickly where they don't have the foundation and it creates a catastrophe. One of my mantras to some close confidants the past couple of years is responsible growth. Right. Responsible growth, I think is wildly important in order to grow and add new clients and top line revenue. You have to be able to service it. Otherwise you're going to create internal problems, employee frustrations, lack of processes, fulfilling a bigger ecosystem. I think responsible growth is really important. It is, however, easy to get sidetracked by top line glitz, glamour, whether it's headlines or accolades and whatnot, and really start chasing that. But if you lose the sense of a healthy foundation, then I think your longevity is not secured.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: So what checks and balances do you have for yourself or with your partners in the business to balance? Because sometimes the ambition and the accolades can be in conflict with the, with responsible growth. So. Well, I think, you know, at what point do you self reflect or you talk to your colleagues and say like, is this the right direction? Do we need to like take our foot off the gas for a second?
[00:43:34] Speaker B: So I think it's going back to this reasonable compromise. It's a constant feedback loop of how are we feeling for our current bandwidth workload?
Are we able to take on, you know, this type of growth? Or do we need to take a deep breath and service what we got. I think just having honest conversations with those types of confidants within our business has really helped, you know, shape the business going forward. I'm more, you know, I'm more excited about that responsible growth where everybody wins rather than a very fast growth to where, sure, maybe we win in the short term, but people are getting overworked or tired and don't long, don't align with a vision.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a burnout.
[00:44:23] Speaker B: 100, you know, 100. And I, and I, I know that feeling like, yeah, I've been in it. I've been in it. And you know, I think there's important measures to take during those times of growth period to be able to step back, reflect on the business, to be able to take time to yourself, to be able to golf, to be able to fish. I like all that stuff, you know, to be able to be with your family. Most importantly, I think, you know, there, there are varying perspectives on drive and, you know, use of time and a, and a work life balance. For me that's a balance is very important. And a balance with family, obviously family comes first. And being good role models for your kids, your family, I think that's most important. And having a little bit of fun, not for everybody, but it's how I'm able to recharge and look at things with clear vision rather than, you know, a burnout obviously causes a bit of blur.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: How do you, how do you think about balancing your time? It sounds like you do. So how do you do it? Like, how do you know? Like, are there particular times of the day that you carve out? Are there particular activities that you make a priority? Are there rules that you.
[00:45:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: Put in place for self questions?
[00:45:35] Speaker B: So we mentioned this a little bit before the podcast, but like I'll try and turn my phone off during dinner. I know that sounds something very little and silly, but being present during important times, like my kids are young and you know, you come home from work and you only have a finite amount of time with them. And I want to be able to spend that, you know, you know, 30 minutes to two hours or whatever it be to have full present attention. I don't want them growing up thinking that I was always buried in my phone or, you know, committed to work first. So I think turning my phone off during dinner, I think Carly, my wife and I, you know, going on a vacation here or there to take time off. We just went to Jackson Hole. It was awesome. By the way, if you Want to go, have a cool place to visit. But we try and take a little bit of vacations here and there to unplug. I think that's really important. So those are small things I do. I like to play golf. The beauty about golf is you can play with folks that you work with too. So it becomes a little bit of business. Yeah. But I've always enjoyed playing golf. So I think taking that time to yourself and focusing on really easy, low hanging fruit, shutting your phone off for 30 minutes during dinner, you know, enjoying a round of golf or whatever it may be that you like doing, I think is important.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I like all that. One thing that I noted, like, when I first had kids, I felt like I got so much more productive during the day. Like I use my time so much better during the day. That was almost like amplifying for my. You know, you also have this other motivating factor.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:05] Speaker A: You know, other mouths to feed and you want to, you want to show them hard work even if they're not observing it yet. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's like they've gotten a little bit older. I've had times where I've kind of like slipped into being a little bit lazy with like working too much around them not being as present as you'd like to be. And so I think that the things that you said, like turning the phone off at dinner, something like that, it takes some of the anxiety out of the rest.
[00:47:33] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: You know, the little things like that can create a lot more balance without having to totally change your day or be home necessarily at five every day and stuff like that. Yeah.
The last thing that I want to talk to you about before I ask a couple questions that we're asking all the guests is, is technology. And the reason I'm asking you about technology as a guy that knows very little about technology is when we got together last, you showed me an app.
[00:48:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: That you created. And I was expecting to be totally underwhelmed and not appreciate it. No offense. It's more, it's more of a slight to myself because I don't understand a lot of it. Yeah. And I was like, dude, do you know how good this is? And you said, I do know how good it is. Not that you weren't cocky, but, you know, talk a little bit about like, how do you implement technology so it's actually effective for your clients? And how do you spend your time innovating when you have a lot of other polls on your time through the day.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Sure. I appreciate that. I am very heavily focused in software development. I'm kind of a geek that way. I'm sometimes as comfortable behind my Mac than anywhere else. And I really enjoy the software process and I enjoy watching how, you know, brokers or consumers would interact with the software so that it will help them in their decision making process. One of the things, one of the tools that we created was an investment analysis, a one click investment analysis that automatically pulls in MLS data that creates a pro forma for you and essentially dumbs down the multi family investing process. It's almost a financial literacy tool and an investment analysis tool and it creates this more casual, informal, easier way to convey information. So I would say similar to that type of tool. I think what's important is if you are providing brokers and consumers with resources that help facilitate their decision making or help clear an area that might otherwise be unclear, I think that's a win. So if you're creating functional technology that you know is also a financial literacy tool and explains what a cap rate is or what a ROI or a total ROI or something to that effect, you know, it creates an opportunity that opens up a new world to many people who wouldn't otherwise understand it. So I think, you know, in software development it's really using tools and resources to facilitate that knowledge transfer or empower your brokers to be knowledgeable in a subject where they might not otherwise be knowledgeable.
[00:50:21] Speaker A: It struck me as information that a broker could immediately utilize in a property walkthrough or debriefing over a cup of coffee afterwards. That's like, it just invites a conversation to dig deeper into how you got there. But it also was not like, you know, like a online estimate that we see sometimes if you go on the popular real estate platforms and you see like an estimate of what your property's worth, whatever generic information that it's aggregating. It was aggregating a lot of proprietary rental information that you guys only know because of the volume of the firm.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: So I think that it's one thing to have the technology, it's another thing to have the volume and the actual product to make the technology effective, right? Yeah.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: Look, I think in making those types of resources and software development, you know, utilizing proprietary data, that data is extraordinarily important. Nobody in the market has access to the data we have just because the volume of off market rentals we do. So if you are able to analyze on and off market rental data to support a multifamily analysis, you are Giving the sharpest feedback around. You know what I would in terms of multifamily sales, I would always joke around in my presentations that I would give that the best multifamily brokers are rental brokers. They know the rental market really well and the top line of your investment analysis is your rental income. And a lot of these deals are hidden in plain sight. We just created the tools to help identify deals that are hidden in plain sight, I. E. Stuff that's under rented. If you find a multi family up that's renting for X but you know, based on your rental data, it could rent for $300 more than that. Creating value you're adding to the rent. You don't have to rehab places. You can just identify deals that were under rented. That's one example of ways to try to create or approach software development that captures data and provides helpful tools to the brokers.
[00:52:28] Speaker A: What's a. What's a non TJ created piece of technology oh my gosh. Regularly that everybody's sleeping on?
[00:52:36] Speaker B: So tons recent feedback. We have our recent developments. We have reverse prospecting through our website that allows all of our agents to see agents within that were our favoriting properties. We have a proprietary CMA that just came out. We're in the process of developing tons of these types of tools that were all feedback from the brokers. On our website it's submit your feature. And so this was an ecosystem developed by all. This isn't just TJ's creation. This is using our hundreds of people to get feedback from them on what will help them do better. In fact, that investment analysis was from a guy named Chris. He's like, these spreadsheets are awesome. We need to find a way to integrate this into a website. It goes on the whole vibe of the organization, the energy of culture and being able to have people give you that type of feedback that helps them. And so I think that the more people that giving feedback that's a compliment because they're going to want to use these features and that's, you know, ultimately what I can help.
[00:53:44] Speaker A: All right, man. We're going to finish with a couple questions that I'm asking all of our guests to wrap up with.
As a leader of a rapidly growing real estate firm in Chicago, what's a typical day look like for you? And what do you want to do more of in your day? What do you want to do less of in your day?
[00:54:00] Speaker B: So I would say this is not a typical day to do a podcast like this.
[00:54:05] Speaker A: Thanks for making it exceptional.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: Pleasure. This is a fun day, but I will say that my day is as the fun part is I get to sort of choose your own adventure. Like, there's a lot of different meetings or initiatives that I've involved in every day, whether it's helping with our property management department, our brokerage software development's obviously a big part of my day. You know, no day is the same really, but it's usually comprising of meetings with staff and agents to help build those company initiatives.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Cool.
What do you want to do more of in your day?
[00:54:36] Speaker B: What do I want to do more of in my day? Oh, man, you know, I would, my mind immediately went, I'd like to play a bit more golf, more fishing. But, you know, funny enough, when I was talking to you before, this podcast is like, downtime's great, but I can only have so much of it.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: Like Thanksgiving, Christmas, they're fun, but then I get anxious after a day or two. So, yeah, you know, I couldn't be more grateful to do what I'm doing. I love it. You know, I, I, this is exactly what I want to be doing today and for the rest of the day, it's exactly what I want to be doing. I really can't think of much else. I, I'm grateful to be able to have a lot of these types of problems that come my way. I'm grateful to be in the position to help resolve conflict. I'm grateful to be in the position to help other people advance their careers, whether it be brokers or employees. And I feel like on the whole, you know, mantra, you know, or theme of this, I want to continue to invest in these relationships to help those folks, you know, create success for themselves because I believe in turn that'll drive us all forward.
[00:55:43] Speaker A: I can tell you really love what you do. Oh, my doing.
[00:55:48] Speaker B: This is the best city to do it, best business.
I, I, I, I couldn't be more proud. And, you know, I really want to thank you for having me on here. Genuinely, it means a lot to me. I've, I've admired your, your work for a long time. I think you're great at what you do. I think you're a guy that really invests in those relationships. So I have no doubt this podcast will also be a success and appreciate you having me on.
[00:56:12] Speaker A: Thanks for doing it, man.
[00:56:14] Speaker B: Great.
[00:56:15] Speaker A: Cool.
