Leasing Iconic Class A Office Space in Chicago - with Matt Pistorio

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome to the Real Estate Chicago Style podcast. I'm your host, Joe Smazel. I'm a broker and partner at Antero Realty. We sell apartment buildings in Chicago. I own and operate some little buildings on the north side as well. Today on the show, we've got the first guest that, I don't know, got to know him a little bit in the last 10 minutes here, but Matt Pistorio. I'm excited to expand the content beyond just multifamily, hopefully the audience beyond multifamily too. But I heard Matt on the Real Estate for Breakfast podcast, Phil Coover, and I really like the conversation. So I know you're going to be a great guest and appreciate you making time for man. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Interested to see if anyone wants to listen about office. Multifamily is a way more exciting topic right now. [00:00:57] Speaker B: All right. Well, I mean, is it though? I don't, you know, I think that office is anybody who doesn't think that they're interested in hearing about office does not understand the gravity that it has on the central business district and the business community in the city. And I, as somebody who only knows about office by way of like kind of following real estate newsletters and stuff, I'm very interested to hear what's actually going on. So go into the weeds as much as you want to go into. And I, and anybody who roots for Chicago should be rooting for you and what you're doing and like success of these leasing endeavors. So. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Yeah, excited. [00:01:39] Speaker B: So Matt is a broker owner of Madison Rose, a firm that he founded, I believe, about five years ago. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah, two months before COVID Okay, there you go. [00:01:52] Speaker B: Great timing. Also a partner at R2Y. I'd venture to say our R2 is the most well respected creative office owners and investors in Chicago. They're behind the Salt Shed music venue, one of the coolest additions the Chicago landscape in a number of years. And then Madison Rose is representing many of Chicago's most important iconic buildings. Chicago Board of Trade, where you said you office jewelers building from what I can tell about all of Fulton Market, like very, very important buildings and communities. And you know, I think that the success of those just plays a big part in success of the city broadly. [00:02:36] Speaker A: So we like to say it's that we represent a lot of buildings that matter to Chicago. And I think like a lot of. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Way to put it. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think like, you know, I think a lot of the older architecture has really been the buildings that have struggled like during COVID lost tenancies and whatnot and, but these are types of buildings that need to be full. These are buildings that cannot be knocked down. A lot of these buildings can't be converted to residential. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:58] Speaker A: And if people who don't love the architecture and don't believe in these architecture, don't lease and work on these buildings, like, what is the end result? And I mean, I, I don't know, but you know, you, you, you would think that they couldn't be knocked down or wouldn't be knocked down, but you know, if no one pays attention to them and works them and believes in them, well, you know, okay, what's good in a zombie office building? [00:03:19] Speaker B: We're talking, you're talking mostly about office buildings there, but like the salt shed, like the salt. Didn't everybody else want to tear down the salt shed? [00:03:26] Speaker A: Everyone wanted to tear it down. Yeah. [00:03:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:27] Speaker A: And build condos. Yeah. We're the only ones that wanted to preserve it. I mean, that's always kind of been the ethos of R2 is to preserve historical architecture and buildings that matter and, you know, find, you know, better ways to utilize them. And we also do believe that you can create incredible spaces out of these buildings. And I think like a lot of people, you know, right now the flight to quality is all about, you know, trophy class, high rise views. And I totally understand that. But there are a lot of buildings with a lot of really, really cool and special spaces that you can create. Spaces that people want to go to. People that, you know, been working at home, you know, want to go work at. And you know, I think the Perfect example is 1315 North Branch is a building that we sold to Heinz. Completely redeveloped adaptive reuse on Goose Island. That building got so hot during COVID I mean, we were getting rents in 2028 to, you know, 32 net again in an old adaptive reuse building. And when, when that building was a fully leased and this is like during COVID and you went into tenant spaces, they're full. Full, you know, transportation one like logistics company. Everyone's in there, butts and seats. You go into any one of those spaces, they're full. And to me that was like a, is a, it was a, it's a great story. You know, here's all these buildings in a loop. They can't get people to go back to the offices. But here you have a building in the neighborhoods in the middle of Goose island and every single space is full. And I just wonder if it has to do with that space and you know, employees going to that space and feeling that, you know, it's got a vibe. It's got, you know, and it's better what than what their alternative is at home. So, I mean, I think, like, you know, you can get special space in these older buildings that just, you know, you just got to kind of uncover. [00:05:03] Speaker B: It and the validation of Heinz buying it. I mean, like, in a true institutional owner, you know, know, buying something outside of city center, buying office, you know, it's also proof of concept from the investment, not just the user of the buildings. But, you know, I think as you talked a little bit about the importance of those buildings, it's like that all impacts the experience of, you know, your employees or the, you know, your visitors into the office. Like, if you come into the lobby of the Chicago Board of Trade or the jewelers building, whatever, and you don't feel the energy of 100 years of commerce and of a lot of happenings like that doesn't matter to you, then you're not an urban. Like, you know, then I don't have anything for it. [00:05:48] Speaker A: You know, the Board of Trade, like, in particular, like, that's like what we actually leaned into when we did a full rebrand of that building and when we were talking about marketing before. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Started podcast. But, like, typically when you're doing a full rebrand, like, you're, you're. You're kind of. [00:06:01] Speaker B: You're refreshing, like you're trying to come. [00:06:04] Speaker A: Up and create new creative ways. Like. And the previous owner actually changed the building name to, even though it's trademarked, it was just Chicago Board of Trade Building. But they changed the name to 141Jackson. And, you know, from my understanding, and I may be wrong, but my understanding was, you know, trading was in the doldrums. You know, people perceived trading as a tough use on the building. Obviously, you know, trading was no longer a thing. And they were trying to move away from. From the whole trading, you know, name. [00:06:33] Speaker B: So they didn't want to pigeonhole themselves and just appealing to traders. [00:06:37] Speaker A: I don't necessarily, you know, hate that strategy, but the reality is, like, what happened in that building back to mattered. It mattered. It mattered to Chicago. How many traders on a daily basis. Like, you know, my wife's family, a lot of her uncles worked at the Board of Trade. Her brothers grew up working at the Board of Trade. Like, that building in that industry was so important. Her family. And I saw it, and I saw it firsthand, like, through her uncles and how they spoke about it and when they closed the trading floor, I mean, that was like, that was devastating to a lot of people. [00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:07] Speaker A: But so many people have been touched by what happened and took place in that building to just not like to just change the name to 141Jackson and not like, you know, celebrate, you know, what happened there to me was, was, was, was a mistake. And so the first thing we did, we took over the building was we renamed the building the Chicago Border Trade Building. And you know, we're about to, to launch a museum there which we, we got $250,000 of spiff money from the city for which we're really, really excited about. It's going to be a trading museum. And that idea came from trying to, you know, remind the city that, you know, buildings like this matter, that things happen at this building mattered. And you know, by doing that museum, or hopefully hope, hope to put the building kind of like back on the map again. [00:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:52] Speaker A: And help tenants, you know, think about, you know, hey, not only is my tenancy, you know, am I getting a good value and I'm getting good amenities and, and you know, I'm in a location that's close to public transportation, but I'm also like making an impact to the city because, because converting it to residential doesn't make sense. [00:08:08] Speaker B: No, it sets the tone for your business too. You know, somebody, you lease space to it, it's going on the board of trade. It sets a tone of, you know, we're here to, you know, we're here to matter. You're coming to work to matter. You're not coming to work, you know, to fart around. You're not going to sterile office building in Northbrook. You're coming to the middle of the city, in the middle of Chicago and you know, biggest cities in the country with the most well rounded account. You're coming in the middle of it. You're sitting in the coolest building and we expect you to matter. I, we got a little, I love it, but we got a little bit off track. So I've started these by asking rapid fire questions and I was reading your bio. You also read, you also leased 25 million square feet of office before you started. Madison Rose is my understanding at Telos Group. And I was just, I was going through it last night and I felt like I read the bio of, you know, like two 60 year old people. You've accomplished a lot, you got a lot of work under your belt. So rapid fire. And then we'll get back to, you know, talking about these specific buildings a little bit more about you and what's making you tick. So what'd you listen to on the way here? [00:09:15] Speaker A: I sat in silence in an Uber. Yeah, something like I tend to do. And I was talking to someone on the, on the way home last night, I think. Who was I talking to? Maybe just Jesse Van Dyker. But I was like saying, I was like, hey, man, do you ever just like sit in trap. Oh, he was sitting in traffic. And I was like, traffic's been miserable. And I was like, I just sometimes like sit in silence for 30 minutes to 45 minutes, like on the way home. And I. And I just also, I'm home and I'm like, wow, was I just really like in my thoughts, which I guess is probably not healthy. And, you know, maybe people are reaching out to me and asking me if I need a friend. But like, I do have a tendency to like, say sit in silence. [00:09:53] Speaker B: But like, I do that if I've had a day where I'm just on the phone all day or in meetings all day, which is a lot of the days, I'm like, I just, it's like when I feel, when I go to a family holiday function at my wife's with my wife's side of the family and everybody is just like, that's how I feel sometimes after I'm just like, turn off the radio in the car. I'm like, I just got chill for a minute. Decompress. [00:10:14] Speaker A: But. But I, you know, I am a podcast past guy. Podcast guy. I love, love music. But like, yeah, I mean, I do find myself a lot of times just like sitting in silence. [00:10:22] Speaker B: I feel you there. Favorite Chicago steakhouse. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Bavettes. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Not wrong pizza place. [00:10:34] Speaker A: I mean, this is not going to be a popular response, but I. But if it's not watery Lumel, Nadis is really, really tough to beat. But like, it's 50. 50. Whether that, that pizza is coming. You know the Loop. [00:10:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:48] Speaker A: And I go Chicago style. Sausage on top. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Cool. [00:10:51] Speaker A: Sometimes Jardiner on top if you're feeling a little spicy. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Are you an early bird or a night owl? [00:10:57] Speaker A: Early bird. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Yeah, same. You got kids favorite under the radar Chicago restaurant. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Acidor Bastion. [00:11:08] Speaker B: Okay. [00:11:09] Speaker A: I don't know if it's under the radar. [00:11:12] Speaker B: On all the buzzy. [00:11:14] Speaker A: It's not on all the buzzy thing. And I literally just took a few friends from JLL there and a broker from. From Studley. He actually went with our significant others, which was really cool. But we went there because the majority of them had never been there before and we were having dinner at another restaurant I was like, have you guys been here before? [00:11:31] Speaker B: It's so cool. [00:11:32] Speaker A: It's amazing. [00:11:33] Speaker B: And talk about the building mattering, by the way, it's in an old mansion, river north, and, you know, where we've got a lot of high rises or we got kind of like the loft office style, and it's an indescript building. From the outside, it's like a vintage mansion. It, like, sets a tone. [00:11:47] Speaker A: I went. I went into the wrong door the first time and. And went to the. The residence. And I think he's, like, one of the owners. He may be, like, a former baseball player that. A friend of mine turned me on to the place. Vic San Miguel. And I actually, like, went to, like, the residence and not, like, the actual restaurant the first time. I'm like, yeah, place is phenomenal. [00:12:06] Speaker B: What's one word that your colleagues would use to describe you? [00:12:11] Speaker A: Unpredictable. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Favorite intersection or corridor in the city? [00:12:25] Speaker A: Randolph and Green. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:28] Speaker A: It could be just because, like, you. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Know, I saw it transform, too. Yeah, it played a part in transformation. Yeah. [00:12:35] Speaker A: And I just feel like I'm at that corner a lot, and I feel like there's sentimental value there. For whatever reason. Like, I don't think it's, like, the most. Certainly not the most iconic and certainly. But for whatever reason, when I'm at Randolph and Green, I just get like, this feeling of. You'd think that maybe, you know, Green and Fulton would give you more of that vibe, but for me, like, Randolph and Green, you know, I had some friends that lived right there out of college, and remember, we used to go to their place all time. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Go to Perez. [00:13:03] Speaker A: Yeah. But I mean, I just feel like, you know, out of college, that was, like, a location that was so, so up and coming. Nobody. It certainly wasn't what it was today. And I think I'd always, like, be there. And whether I was, like, getting a cab home or, you know, late nights, I'm like, on Randolph and Green. And then you go there now, I don't know. I know it's a random intersection, but there's something about that, that. That location. [00:13:24] Speaker B: I love that. My previous guest Sale told me this question was stupid, and he refused to answer. So I'm gonna ask you, and if you think it's stupid, then we're gonna cut it out and we'll pretend like this never happened. If you were a NASCAR driver and you could pick three sponsors to put on your car, what brands would you have sponsor? Matt Pistorio's Chevy or whatever. [00:13:47] Speaker A: I think. I think it's a Great question. It would. Patagonia would. Would. Would be one of them. [00:13:53] Speaker B: Okay. [00:13:54] Speaker A: I'm really big into the outdoors, nature. I'm a huge fly fisherman. [00:13:59] Speaker B: And sustainability. Yeah. [00:14:02] Speaker A: And. And I think Patagonia does as good a job as anyone. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:09] Speaker A: You know, I. I gotta put Bass Pro Shops in there again. Everyone that knows me, I'm. I'm a fishing junkie. And, you know, I just remember as a kid, my parents, you know, anytime that we were going up to Wisconsin, we would stop at Bass Pro, and I would want to look at the fish tanks. And, you know, I'd use whatever money I was making at the batting cages of the ski shop that I worked at, and I dumped every penny into that place. [00:14:29] Speaker B: We've taken our boys to Bass Pro Shops just on, like, a rainy day to get out. Like, they needed to get out of the house. They were bouncing off the walls. We're like, we're going to Bass Pro Shops. [00:14:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:37] Speaker B: It's a riot place. [00:14:38] Speaker A: The third brand is a small one that few people know, but I would put Scandinavian Ski Shop on there. I started working there when I was 15 years old. I worked there till I was probably 31 or 32 years old, which is kind of crazy to think about. But the owner of that ski shop, Jeff Magnuson, really taught me everything I feel like I knew about sales. And. And I think, you know, that that's actually how I got in this business, which I think is something we're going to talk about later. But that place has always meant a lot to me. [00:15:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:09] Speaker A: And I feel like, you know, selling skis in a ski shop at, you know, I started, like, 16 years old, I think, helped me develop, you know, the interpersonal skills to deal with people today, challenging people today. And so that place is. Is just. There's a special place in my heart for it. And so I would put that brand on there, even though most people probably. [00:15:31] Speaker B: No, I love that answer. And I think. [00:15:33] Speaker A: I think it's a great question, by the way, anytime you go through a branding exercise and I'm looking you like, you know, that's a good question. There's like, what. What brands influence you the most? What brands do the best job of selling this and this and this, and it's usually, like, Rolex and Mercedes and, like. And I think that's just, like, a great way to. To really try to help people identify. [00:15:54] Speaker B: I appreciate that you understood kind of the depth of the question, too. All right, well, we're keeping it on the list. Go back. So tell us, tell Us how you got into real estate. Tell us why you got into real estate. You know, you could start at the Scandinavian ski shop. Or if you need to go back further than that, go back further than that. Give us a little backstory. [00:16:12] Speaker A: It was an accident, honestly. I was doing. I had to do an internship for my major. I was at University of Illinois, and I was a sports marketing major, which is exactly what you think it is. It's a total bullshit major. I was in classes with all athletes, but that was the only way that I think. All my friends, when I look back, I actually was talking about this the other day, too. Like, all my buddies were like, you know, accounting majors, and they, you know, they were doing internships, and they, like, had, like, everything planned out. Like they knew what they're doing. And I was like, kind of like, I'm just here to, like, party, you know, Like, I'm here to. You know, I'm here to. I'm just here. [00:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:48] Speaker A: And so I honestly wasn't really planning for what I was doing after college. And it never even occurred to bother me. And as a dad now, I would probably get in front of that a little bit. But it never. [00:17:01] Speaker B: Same boat, dude. So it never. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it never, like, really occurred to me to, like, be like, hey, I gotta actually have, like, a plan, so, like, what happens when I get out? And so I had to do this internship. I did it for the Western Golf Association. It was the first year that the Western Open was going to the BMW Championship. So it was, you know, a loved golf event in the Western Open in Illinois was going to this new FedEx cup style. We're during the Masters, by the way. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. We should, like, have that on. [00:17:25] Speaker A: We should have it on. [00:17:28] Speaker B: We wouldn't have much of a conversation. [00:17:30] Speaker A: They were paying me 250 bucks a week. I was living at home. It was in golf, Illinois. And so I was working at the ski shop as well, which I've always worked at. And a guy by the name of Doug Sheehan came in, and I sold him a pair of ski boots. And he left. And then he came back in and said, hey, you know, what are you going to do after your internship? And like, a lot of people, like, when you're selling some skis and ski boots and they're trying stuff on you, you do build a connection with them. And I think that's where I kind of went back. Why this shop's important to me is because that's at a young age. I mean, you know, selling skis to people at 16, 17 years old. But. [00:18:09] Speaker B: But wild that that ended up being an entree because, like, you have, you know, you could say, like, oh, you get to know somebody. But like, you, you obviously had enough of him, an impact to. For him to buy the skis, turn around and walk and be like, hang on, I gotta go see what's up with this kid. Because I'm a believer in like, kind of always be. Always be selling yourself, always be, you know, but like, when you're working at a ski shop, you just kind of like, my. My guest would be kind of like going through the motions a little bit, but that wasn't the approach that you took. So something you did stuck with him. [00:18:40] Speaker A: I genuinely loved what I did. I love skiing. I mean, if I think about when I was a kid, kid, like all over my room, I had trail maps of all these ski areas. And I honestly didn't even go skiing out west until I think I was a sophomore or junior in high school, where I went with a friend's family. And then my dad took me to Whistler, I think, my senior year. And that was like the first time I was like, really was. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Otherwise it's like the Midwest skiing, it's just like straight down. It was totally good. [00:19:03] Speaker A: It was, it was totally good. And, you know, with all my ski shop buddies, we'd go up after five o' clock on Saturdays and we go to Wilmot and we'd ski from 6 to. To 11. And like, you know, that was. It was all good. But I was so passionate about the sport. But anyway, so that probably came out to him when I was selling the boots. But he came back in, he said, I think the quote was, I think you could sell something to anybody. Like, I would love, you know, to consider you. I got a junior broker position. I'm at Cushman in Wakefield. Have you heard of Cushman in Wakefield? And it was like his. The question was like, well, of course you have, right? [00:19:32] Speaker B: Did you guys talk about real estate at all? [00:19:34] Speaker A: Not really. Yeah, not really. Maybe. He told me he was a broker, but, like, honestly, still in that stage of my life, like, I didn't know what that meant. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:40] Speaker A: And when he said Cushman wake, he felt like he was waiting to be like, oh, yeah, like I. Yeah, I know Cushman and Wakefield, of course, one of the largest, like, brokerage companies in the world. Like, I had no idea who Cushman Wakefield was. And I knew nothing about commercial real estate. And so anyways, I went in and met with Him. And then he had me meet with a friend of mine who I played hockey with growing up, Jason Simon, which is kind of like how you start to meet people in the business. And then I met with David Burden, who's at Colliers now and was actually running that office. And after all those meetings, you know, I got hired. And, you know, after I finished and graduated, it took me six and a half years of college, which I had to go get my broker's license, and I was going to be an office broker. And, like, you know, here we are. [00:20:26] Speaker B: So what do you think when you take yourself back when you started, what set you apart? What do you think that you were doing differently, doing better, that you can look back at and kind of. [00:20:39] Speaker A: Well, I was once. I was at Cushman. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Once that you had the opportunities. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:43] Speaker B: So, yeah, I'll give you. [00:20:44] Speaker A: I mean, this will kind of go into, like, the cadence of how. How I came to our today. I mean, so, you know, I actually only worked at Cushman for about 11 months, and I was working on some. Some projects. You know, I feel like some tougher projects. One, you know, in particular was out in East West Cordova, out in Naperville. So I grew up. I started in the burbs. Okay. And I remember just, you know, just talking to, you know, guys like Jason Simon and Peter Kelly, some of these guys. I grew up, you know, working with Sean Henrick, who's awesome industrial broker, who, you know, I just watched this kid bang the phones, and he was just, like, inspiring. Jordan Rivito, same thing. Like. And, you know, I was more of a. I was a leasing guy. I was doing some tenant rep stuff, but I was focused on leasing, but I was trying to emulate what they were doing from, like, more of a tenant rep standpoint as, like, a leasing guy. And I think. I think is Diana Ricksey, who is a broker at jll, I think tipped off Brian Whiting, who has really been, you know, my biggest mentor in this business. And I'll go into that. You know, maybe there was a suburban broker out there and he was hiring. He was at J.F. mcKinney at the time. And they. McKinney had a suburban portfolio, but it was mostly downtown. [00:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:01] Speaker A: Um, and so, you know, I got put in touch with Brian and was really inspired by, you know, what, you know, what he was telling me and what the opportunity was and, you know, saying, you know, hey, maybe there's an opportunity to come downtown one day. And we're one of the largest leasing companies Downtown. And, you know, when I went home and told my mom, like, at first, she was like, you know, you know, what are you doing? Like, you know, it's also wholesome that. [00:22:22] Speaker B: You went home and told who's J.F. [00:22:24] Speaker A: Mckinney? You know, you're at a big brokerage. And then. And ironically then she put together one. Brian was the brother of one of her best friends in college. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:22:34] Speaker A: And, like, that softened her up a little bit. And then I was like, well, look at all the stuff they have downtown. And then she was like, wow. And so, you know, long story short, that's the decision I made. I actually will. I'll also never forget the day that I told Doug that I was leaving. And it was so hard for me because I really did appreciate what he did for me. [00:22:55] Speaker B: He pulled you out of a ski shop, dude. [00:22:58] Speaker A: And I'll never forget this. And I don't know if Doug will ever listen to this, but I went into his office, and I honestly started crying. [00:23:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:07] Speaker A: And I was. It was a really hard thing for me to do. And he goes, be a man. Can't cry. Like, I'm sorry. [00:23:16] Speaker B: You know, like, he started crying about napping me. [00:23:21] Speaker A: And, you know, and, you know, that. That. That was that. And so, you know, then I went, you know, worked at McKinney. I worked in the burbs a little bit. And then the way I got downtown was. And this was really the. The entree to my entire career was. Was 180 North LaSalle, a guy by the name of Harry Skydell, who a lot of people know very well. 601 West Company is one of the most prolific buyers of real estate I think, in Chicago history has been responsible, you know, for some of the best redevelopments also in Chicago. The old Post Office Aeon, Prudential plaza, Civic Opera, 111 West Jackson. What? I mean, you can go on and on. The guy's an absolute. An amazing human being and an incredible buyer of real estate. But Brian brought me downtown. Shows me 180North LaSalle. He's like, what do you think of this building? And I was like, I love it. And, you know, you look back now, like, one of his huge headers, like, buildings, you know, it's. It's kind of just like in a commodity building on LaSalle Street. [00:24:15] Speaker B: But I love for you, it represented the opportunity of downtown. It wasn't. [00:24:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And I think, like, you know, I think he asked, and I won't name any of the names. A couple people, you know, if they wanted to work on it. And they are kind of dogging on the building like, ah, like. And he was kind of like, he's like, you know, these guys, like, you know, I bring him a good listing and they don't want to take this, like, you know, so I think he was like, a little, you know, jacked up about that. And so I was like, I absolutely love to work on this. And so we had an incredible run at that building. It's really the first spec suite with an open ceiling in like a traditional office building. [00:24:49] Speaker B: I don't want to know what that. [00:24:50] Speaker A: Means that, you know, like, you know, you know, nowadays. Well, this is a drop ceiling. [00:24:53] Speaker B: A lot of apartment guy, man. [00:24:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. Now you're feeling like a fish out of water. I get it. But. But like, lofting ceilings in offices was not a thing for a while. And. And, you know, with tech was. Was kind of. [00:25:04] Speaker B: It was raw. It wasn't like the. [00:25:05] Speaker A: So you open it up so you get a higher ceiling. And, you know, and this was a, you know, Brian genius. I mean, he. He really was the first person, as far as I know, to do like the fully furnished spec suite where he was coming out of 0809. He did it at 311 South Wacker Drive as a means to get tenants to move at a time that was really hard to get tenants to move because they didn't have money to spend on, you know, and that's kind of how this spec suite furniture thing came about in Chicago, which I don't know if a lot of people know this, but anyways, 180 was the first one open ceiling. And we. We ran a truck through that building. Oh, we put a new fitness center in that was like a free fitness center, was like a new thing. And. And then Harry bought 111 West Jackson. And then we cry. I remember when Brian brought me over there, he goes, what do you think of this building? And I was so. And I was like, I love it. He goes, really? And that building, if, you know, that building is kind of a piece of, you know, and it looks into a jail. And anyways, we ran a truck through that building. And then, you know, Harry bought, you know, Civic. And that was kind of, you know, how everything started for me. And so that was while we were at McKinney and four years into McKinney or ish, Brian decided to leave McKinney and start his own thing, which was the TLUS Group. [00:26:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:16] Speaker A: He asked me if I would, you know, join him in. In launching that company, which was an incredible opportunity. I think I was 29 years old. I mean, like, what a, you know, an incredible opportunity. And honestly, all my buildings were with him and with Harry, so I could stay, but, like, what is there really for me to do do here? But of course, I mean, it was a great opportunity and, you know, with, you know, launched it with Jack o' Brien, you know, who's still there today, and, you know, love that guy. And, you know, that's when, you know, Telos was born. And, you know, he started with 4 million square feet and grew it to 25 million square feet. And those guys are all still kicking ass over there. And, you know, the people that are there, I think a lot of them have changed over, but I'm still tight, like, with all the guys, like Matt Whipple over there and Jamie Dix and those guys kill it. And they do a great job. But, you know, Brian was really. He taught me, you know, really almost everything I know. He'd always say, I taught him everything I know, just not what was his line. Oh, I taught him everything he knows, just not everything that I know. But, you know, he taught me. [00:27:21] Speaker B: So you guys compete for a deal or something? [00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah, but he. Yeah, I mean, I. I attribute, you know, a significant amount of high success to him. And of course, you can't forget about Doug, you know, who. Who, you know, harvest me out of a, you know, a little ski shop in Glenview, Illinois. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Dude. I mean, first of all, 25 million square feet is insane. Yeah, I mean, it's just like Google told me last night, that's 434 football fields worth of space. [00:27:46] Speaker A: It's a lot of space. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Wild. [00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:49] Speaker B: And the assignments, Sears Tower. Sure, you're supposed to call it Wills Tower, but I'm. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Prudential Plaza. Oh, yeah. Iowa. And transported into Chicago, old main post office, Citadel Center. I mean, like, so did you, like, were you just young at that point? Did you. Was it. Were you, like, numb to the gravity of those buildings or was that what you think drove you to totally, like, perform? You know, like, I'm in Madison Square Garden right now. Like, you gotta step up. I'm not. You know, it. Was it that kind of feel to you, or were you kind of like, you know, sometimes you're, like, blissfully naive to it and you're like, you didn't let that kind of, like, pressure and gravity bother you. How did you feel about the. How iconic these buildings were that you were working on? [00:28:34] Speaker A: I honestly, the most honest answer to that Is I honestly wish I appreciated it more. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:39] Speaker A: You know, I think, like, when you're, when you're in it and you're in the thick of it, it's kind of just a day in the life. I mean, I generally loved what I did. Like, I mean, I love what I do. I mean, I love, like, looking at a building and trying to create a story out of it, breaking it down, like, trying to see it in a different way that other people see it, you know, like 180 and 111. A lot of people saw those buildings as shit buildings. But I, I, I like to say, like, part of, you know what I think I'm good at and my team is, is kind of this, like, law of attraction where we are overly positive. I do have an overly positive view on people, on life, and, and I feel like that comes out when I'm giving a presentation or I'm giving a tour or I'm talking about what I do, because I am. Again, I think in this business you have to be positive. If you get pulled down by the negativity, like, you're, it's just gonna, you know, how are you gonna accomplish, you. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Know, at this point? You know, you've seen so much come to fruition in your business that people wouldn't look at that as being, like, Pollyannish and not being real. I mean, you, I think that you can will things to work with your positivity and okay, so you're wrong. So something goes. I mean, I'd rather be positive about figuring it out than being, like, in the doldrums, you know, all bummed out. That's the only way I know too, man. [00:29:52] Speaker A: I honestly, you know, I, I do look back and, and I do wish I, like, slowed that down and, but, you know, we were moving and moving quickly and, like, you know, honestly, until, like, right now, I honestly haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about, you know, how great that is. [00:30:09] Speaker B: That's cool. You should, you should, you know, you should do a drive with your kids downtown or something and look around. It's, I mean, you know, pretty impactful. [00:30:18] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I mean, it's. [00:30:19] Speaker B: The other thing I'm going to say is I started to write down, like, when you'd say a name, I was trying to, like, I recognize a lot of the names just from being in real estate and reading cranes or whatever, but you've probably listed like, 25 names. And some of these people are colleagues now. Some of them are people that were impactful in your trajectory or that mentored you directly or indirectly. But I think the lesson I want to point out was in real estate, if you're, you know, if you're doing it the right way, you know, a lot of people are going to be in the business for a long time. So like these people who were colleagues, you know, sometimes they become competitors or, you know, or it's just like you have to, you have to treat those relationships with utmost, like, importance because they are going to either make or break your success in the business. And now those people you're competing with, you're collaborating with in a lot of ways now. And even if they're just direct competitors and you never do any deals with them, if they're doing the business the right way, they are important for your profession. I would rather have my good competitors win assignments that I don't get rather than them go to somebody who does a sloppy job or who takes shortcuts or, you know, because I know that they're going to be a good steward for the assignment for about, or lack of a better way to put it, you know. [00:31:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, like, the market, you know, would consider, like, you know, like telos is what I feel like. They feel like that, that was like my arch nemesis. And with the, the ironic thing is, you know, I named Jack o' Brien and I named Matt Whipple and then I can name Colton and I can name Jamie and I, you know, I, I, I, I feel like a lot of those people there, I still have a good relationship or respect or if I'm hanging out with a competitor or it's usually them, you know, if it's like after events, like, I, I wind up and I'm like, I'm hanging out with Jet. [00:32:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:16] Speaker A: I hit the microphone. I'm hanging out with Jack and Whipple, you know, and I genuinely love those guys. And I, you know, I appreciate what they do and I think they are the best at what they do on the leasing side, Chicago. That's why they continue to perform. That's why, you know, a lot of people have success. But, like, you can have success. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:34] Speaker A: They've kept it. And what I also respect is in they're, they're a small or small company. [00:32:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:40] Speaker A: Probably, you know, 15 people. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:42] Speaker A: You know, and, you know, it's the name of J.F. mcKinney. You know, like, honestly, one of the people, the people that I didn't mention who I have the utmost respect for and, and maybe had some of the most impact on me was, was Jack McKinney who was the founder of JF McKin. Jack McKin Senior. He was probably the best leader I have ever met in the business. And I try to emulate what were. [00:33:05] Speaker B: A couple characteristics he had that stuck out to you. [00:33:09] Speaker A: He, he made you feel appreciated. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:13] Speaker A: You know, like he, I, I, I would just remember every single day sitting in my cube. It was like right on like the walkway where, you know, people at their, their offices at 71 South Wacker, almost every single day he'd stop by and he'd be like, I appreciate you. Thank you for being here. Like, just like something that, like, you know, in a lot of us who are type A and you know, we, you know, I try to be like, hey, I don't, I don't need an attaboy, you know, I'm a self starter. But man, like, what that like, and to this day I'm sure he doesn't even know that. But what that meant to me and just how I just felt like seen and that like it, I just like. You just like don't see that? [00:33:54] Speaker B: No, I stink at it too. That's why I think I appreciate it when you say that. Cuz I'm like, dang, I should do a better job. [00:33:59] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, he put your hand, his hand on your shoulder and like, and even like when I like up and made some mistakes, you know, while I was at McKinney and I did some pranks and stuff like that, like, which I won't bring up, but you know, he, he brought me in his office and he was quick to be like, all right, we're gonna have to talk about this. Like, man, that was funny. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Okay, look, first of all, well done. [00:34:23] Speaker A: Yes, well, like we talked about, we're talking about customer. And then he proceed to say all these things that he did when he was younger. [00:34:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:32] Speaker A: And then he would, you know, the lesson would come at the end. But I thought like, what a great way to work with a young kid to like just not like beat him down. And you know, still I learned my lesson. I learned my lesson. I walked out of that office and I'm never doing that again. But I also felt that like, hey man, like other people have been there before. Yeah, successful people like Jack have done these things before and I'm not like that, like, crazy. [00:34:58] Speaker B: Also when he, when he, when he said it reminds me of like we were talking offline about, you know, when our kids kind of mess up, but it's like a little funny, you know, and so it's, it's really like, look, okay, first thing I'm gonna say is. That's really funny. [00:35:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:15] Speaker B: Don't ever think about doing it again. And it's like, but, but when you're the, when you're a parent or when you're Jack McKinney Senior. And you can appreciate that it's funny, at least you know, he's enjoying the ride too. You know, he would. If everybody came in was boring. Like his job, his life wouldn't be as fulfilled either. [00:35:32] Speaker A: You know, human is, you know, everything that's going on. And when you're a leader, it's you. You don't want to. Your job is not to make sure everyone knows that you're. You're the boss. And like, you're kind of coming down to, you know, the level of, you know, the person. He, he was amazing. And, and, and you know, I didn't have as much direct, you know, he, he ran McKinney. But, you know, I was, you know, working for Brian. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:57] Speaker A: But he, man, the stories that, that guy just like times are so different now. I just think about some of those. [00:36:04] Speaker B: But yeah, so you're in this incredible. In this growing firm at Telos with a lot of people that you liked. [00:36:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Still like. And you had an opportunity to join R2, which I referred to earlier as, I think, you know, best in class office investor in Chicago for several reasons. What went into that decision? How'd that come about? Because you're clearly, you were very effective as a broker. You enjoyed brokerage, you like the people you're working with. But you, you went to the principal side for a bit. [00:36:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think in between Telos and R2 there was a 9 str. 9 month stretch that I actually took out of the business. And I had to handle some personal things that happened in my life and you know, you know, did some things that I'm not proud of. You went through a tough stretch with my family, with my wife who was overcoming breast cancer and kind of, you know, led me down a path that, you know, I'm not very proud of. I mean, to speak candidate. I think, you know, Brian and my relationship, you know, also became, excuse me, became fractured, you know, over time. I think a lot of it had to do with me kind of feeling a little bit bigger for my British britches, if you will. I mean, I think I got overly confident. And listen, you know, like what? Like my dad. I never forget my dad said after I spit with Brian was, you know, you know, sometimes, you know, between a men, this typically happens with mentors and mentees at some point. [00:37:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:40] Speaker A: You know. You know, this. This type of thing can happen. And. And so, I mean, long story short, I took nine months off, which was. Which was honestly the best thing I've ever done. I'll never forget. Like, I thought, like, I was so into the business. I was so into. Like, it was my life. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Like, and I feel like a lot of people in real estate can probably relate to what I'm saying. You get, like, so into, like, success. [00:38:01] Speaker B: Almost becomes, like, your identity, and it's like you're. You know, it's a little consuming that way. [00:38:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:06] Speaker B: And I can harness it. It's powerful, but it's. [00:38:08] Speaker A: And I thought stepping away would be like, what am I gonna. Like, oh, my God. Like, you know, how fast is the industry gonna move away from me? [00:38:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:16] Speaker A: When I'm gone. And long story short, like, I came back, like, nothing changed. Like, it was like the same tenants that were in the market were still in the market. And, like, that. That was like, you also. [00:38:24] Speaker B: When somebody's in the business, if you think about nine months ago, you know, it's all blur, man. Like, if somebody said, I've been out of the business for nine months, but I don't even know if you're in the business. [00:38:33] Speaker A: You're like, oh, it's been nine months. But if you're out of it, like, you did feel like kind of like eternity. But. But I did. I did want to always get on the principal side. You know, I think because of the way I got into brokerage, you know, I didn't spend a ton on understanding the fundamentals of real estate, understand the fundamentals of what it. What it means to be an owner. And that always interested me. It was always of interest to me. And, you know, when you see guys like Harry and you see the owner, you're like, I want to be that guy. You know, like. Right. Yeah. I want to be the owner. I want to be the man. [00:39:04] Speaker B: I was telling, like, my. One of my. I think I was telling Friedberg about it, our mutual client friend. It's like, you know, when you sit there and see my kids build Legos or something, I'm like, the building part of it you don't ever really, like, fantasize about, like, well, it'd be cool to be the broker of this strike, you know, And I love my job, but it's. But there's something about being on the principal side that is magnetic, and it's this. It's a beacon for, you know, for us service providers, I guess, too. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's kind of like also there was a little bit of this cockiness that I had at the time, which again, like, something that is all part of growing, right? And I think is, Is. Is a, you know, something I developed, which again, I'm also not proud of, but I also recognize that, you know, like, the only way you got to live and learn. And, you know, when I tell this to my team all the time, like I tell them all the time, I want them to make mistakes. Like, Like, I want them to make mistakes. It's the best way to learn. That's why I give them a lot of freedom to go out there and make mistakes. Hopefully they're not catastrophic, but, you know, you know, when you make that mistake, you know, you got to, you got to learn from it. Like, if you're making the same mistake over and over and over, like, that's not going to be okay. But, you know, I, I wanted, you know, I felt like I was like, I can redevelop buildings, you know, Like, I, you know, like, now I know how to do it. Like, now I just need to be the guy. And so I, I always wanted to be on the principal side and, And Matt. And Matt. Max gave me this. Max Myers, who I love and respect and. And Matt Garrison, who. Who is the founder of. Of R2, you know, gave me the opportunity to. To do that and go on the principal side and, and wow, was that, like, eye opening? Like, man, like when you think, like. [00:40:46] Speaker B: What'S something specific that you just, you know, say blindside. But you, you didn't bargain. You underestimated. Maybe it's a better way to put it. [00:40:54] Speaker A: Simple as not understanding the meaning of basis. I mean, you chuckle, but, like, like, I'm telling you, I know it's for a fact. There's a shit ton of leasing brokers out there that have no idea. [00:41:06] Speaker B: So you thought you could just kind of cool your way through, you know, and it's like, we'll figure it out. We're going to deliver great space. I'm going to work. [00:41:13] Speaker A: Man, I realized, I thought. I thought I knew everything about real estate. I could do anything. I was walking on clouds. Yeah, right. I've had a lot of, like, to your point, I've had a lot of success. Yeah, man, it was humbling. It was so humbling that I was like, as Bill Truskowski would say, like, I didn't know from apple butter about real estate. Like, when I, like when I came out of there yeah. [00:41:38] Speaker B: So now. Well, so okay. So you were, you still work with R2? Yeah, still a partner in R2, but brokerage pulled you back. [00:41:47] Speaker A: So. Yeah. So what happened was, you know, a year into R2, a guy by the name, name of Nathan Aber who's, you know, it's been infinite infamous in Chicago real estate. He bought all the AmTrust buildings. There's a 7 million square foot portfolio and they had kind of cycled through brokers and they had really kind of hit a real tough patch. He reached out to me and said, hey, you know, curious, you know, I'm going to make a change on, you know, all my buildings. I'm curious if this is something you'd want to work on. [00:42:17] Speaker B: And I was explaining 7 million square foot, nine minutes isn't like a building. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's like nine buildings. And I was like. And in the back of my mind I was like, you know, at the, at that time and that company has definitely changed now with Patrick Kearney involved and, and you know, some new folks that are doing a great job. But at that time, you know, they, they were kind of known for, you know, not doing what they're going to say they're going to do and just being just a tough owner to deal with. And again, I should say like that's that I think that perception is certainly in my mind different with Patrick there. But you know, so I was like, oh man, do I like really? Like, yeah. And his thing was he goes, you ripped out so many tenants out of my buildings and put them in, you know, Aon and post Office. Like he's like, you know, like, I want, like this is like I want, you know, I want my, you know, I want my shot. And you know, I went to talk to Matt and Max because we did talk about doing third party stuff and, and, and in the middle of that, Nathan's like, I can't, I can't have it, R2. Like you got to do your own thing. And you know, long story short, Matt and Max were really supportive. It. We, we figured out to make it work and we say, hey, let's see if this works. And it was hard to turn down. I mean it really had. [00:43:26] Speaker B: And honestly, getting back to Brooklyn, it's like a type of assignment that you can, you. It like can launch a business. There's enough scale that by itself really, you know. Right. [00:43:36] Speaker A: And it did. And that's, you know, that's how Madison Rose was born. Madison Rose is. Madison is my 10 year old daughter. Peyton Rose is my 8 year old daughter. And honestly, you know, Gene and I, my wife, who's a 5050 partner in Madison Rose, you know, like, looked at it was also kind of like we wanted to do a lot more work with breast. Breast cancer. We wanted to. We knew like that was going to be more of a mission of ours, you know, regardless of, you know, what I was doing with work after she had, you know, the complete response. And so, you know, we looked at it as. Also as a platform to, you know, raise money for breast cancer and, and which we do a ton of now. And so anyway, so we. So I did it. I hired Adam Pines. I hired a gal by the name of Daniela Hemsley. And, you know, that was Madison Rose. And. And then literally two months after we launch, Covid hit what was covet. Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:32] Speaker B: I couldn't help but think about what the name of my business would be if I use the same Jack Will. Sounds like beef jerky or something. But I love that you. But I love that you leaned into the family ownership of the business, you know, and I was just talking. We filmed two of these in a time just for the sake of all the setup and everything, but was talking to Sal Bovic about, you know, what it means for him to hang, you know, Povic Management property. Property managed by Kovic Management on his signs and the, you know, and that being kind of like this undertone of here's who we are, here's what this means to us. And you, you know, you did that with the name of your brokerage firm too. Right? So. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, listen, it's not that, you know, family was never a big part of my life. I feel like, you know, during, you know, the growth period in. In Telos and just again, job became my identity, Job became everything. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:29] Speaker A: And, you know, I. I think, you know, I think, you know, family definitely slipped. [00:45:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:35] Speaker A: And, you know, for me and like, kind of like coming back from everything, I did want to prioritize family and I do to this day, you know, prioritize my family. And, you know, I find there's some days that, you know, I, you know, that are tougher days and I'll just leave a little early because I feel like, you know, I find sanctuary when I'm home and with my family and I feel like, you know, if everything that happened and I became a better dad, I became a better husband, I'm a better leader today for it. And. But, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it motivates. I think everyone at the company is motivated by Kind of being, you know, the girls and our company. And I know HR doesn't like, an HR person would not like you to say your company is like a family, you know, atmosphere. Like, they. Whatever reason, they just don't like that. But we really kind of are that. And I do feel like the girls are kind of part of a lot of it when we do our big moonlight event. You know, they're there and they're a part of things, and Gina is, you know, a part of things. And I think it's one thing that makes our company unique and super special and sticky. I mean, we've only. We haven't had really any attrition outside of one person. I truly believe that, you know, there's multiple people at that company if they want. You know, I told them that. Would you tattoo the Madison Rose logo on you? I know Abby would do it for sure, because she is, like, total badass. And she's so, like, all Madison Rose through and through, which. But, you know, I think, you know, the fact that, you know, there is family and Gina and the girls behind it and they're around, it's not like, you know, they're the people that you never see. I mean, they're. [00:47:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you couldn't do it if it wasn't authentic. You know, you'd get. It wouldn't stick. It would kind of have the opposite. What's the moonlight event? Is that a fundraiser? [00:47:19] Speaker A: Yeah, Moonlight. Yeah, Moonlight. We. It's a. It's an annual event. It's. It's. It, you know, kind of started as a real estate event. We started in Covid, where we did. [00:47:29] Speaker B: You know, you all stayed six feet apart or else. [00:47:34] Speaker A: Don't take me on a tangent, because that's not for me. But we. During COVID we decided to do a, you know, a. A. A virtual fundraiser. Like, again, like, we're all, like, trying to figure out what to do. And we knew that part of Madison Rose was going to be philanthropy. Yeah, that was, you know, always part of our mission, donating a portion of our commissions. That. That is. That was kind of like going to be part of the ethos of Madison Rose. And we. We did this fundraiser during COVID We picked a beneficiary, which is a company called Casting for Recovery, which I actually just was added to the board of trustees there, which is something I'm really excited about. But we ended up, like, raising 35 grand in a virtual fundraiser. [00:48:16] Speaker B: Is it, like. Is there a fishing. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:48:18] Speaker B: So, like, it's like. [00:48:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a company out of Bozeman, Montana. My family, we have a place out in Bays Guy, Montana. And I came across, you know, this organization that takes women who have breast cancer, fly fishing, and someone who's, you know, you know, Gina had breast cancer. My daughter Peyton hit a tree. Snow tubing while we're in Montana during COVID Oh, yeah. Had had to be airlifted from Big Sky, Montana, to Salt Lake City with seven skull fractures. Had to have brain surgery. Nearly. Nearly died. And then that was during COVID right after we launched Madison Rose. And then about 24 months ago, Gina had a brain tumor. She had a brain tumor when she was 12. And so, you know, the last, like, 10 years, there's been a lot of trauma in. The one thing that centers me is fly fishing. And, you know, fly fishing is. If you've ever done it, it's hard. [00:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I tried to do it, and I slipped on my. On the rocks, and then my. My waders filled up with water, and then it didn't do anything. For the experience as well. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not a good experience, Especially that water is probably pretty cold. [00:49:26] Speaker B: Like, I couldn't get the flow of it. You know, it's hard. Add it to the list. [00:49:31] Speaker A: It's really hard. Again, it's not everyone, but. But what does fly fishing do? I mean, you know, people always say fish are not caught in places that aren't beautiful. Right. So you're in nature, which everyone, I think, who's been in nature knows that nature is healing. You're standing in the water. The sound of the rushing water is peaceful. But fly fishing is hard. And when you fly fish, the only thing you can possibly think of at that time is that next cast or that next drift. And when you get really good. And when you fish as much as I fish, a lot of it is you're changing flies. Tangles, you know, never talks about tangles. But, like, you know, I tell people all the time there's something therapeutic about getting me stuck in a tangle. And I can cut the line and I can, like, retie my flies, but sometimes I'll just sit there for 15, 20 minutes and get a tangle out, because you are so present and you don't think about anything. And. And what in this world can you do where you can completely immerse yourself in something and not think about work, not think about life, not think about all the problems? Like, there's not many. Like, I'm a huge skier, but get on the lift, you get on your phone, you're A golfer, you get back in the golf cart like you, you may be in that moment while you're doing that thing, but how many things can you go and be in the moment for a very long period of time? And so for me, fly fishing has been therapeutic. And so when I found that there was an organization that took women who have breast cancer and take them fishing and put them in nature and they can find the same therapy that I have found. And now my wife fishes and as she has found. And now my, my daughters are big fly Fishermen, especially my 8 year old Peyton, who had her accident. And I really do think a lot of it has to with do do with what, what she has been through. And then the fact that these women build community and the fact that, you know, when I see, when I saw what Gina went through and actually her sister Noelle recently just overcame breast cancer which is, she had a complete response, which is incredible. And she's a total badass too. But you know, there's not a massive community of these young women that are having breast cancer, but there are a lot more that are getting diagnosed with it. And you know, when you're going through it, you're alone. And if you're young, especially like Gina, Noel, like who do you. Well, Noel had Gina, but like who do you talk to? Yeah, and Casting for Recovery has these retreats where 14 women, they go, you know, to a place for two days. They meet women who are going through the same like minded issues whether, you know, whether it's, you know, a lot. It's a lot, yeah, you know, family issues. [00:51:42] Speaker B: There's a lot of things that forum to distract. It gives them a, you know, community around it to talk through. And you know, thank God, you know, there's examples now of people who are on the other side of it that they can be a resource for. [00:51:54] Speaker A: They have doctors understand. They also talk about a lot of times with you know, the surgeries. You know, they have double. My wife had a double mastectomy, but just the fly cast is good for physical movements. [00:52:03] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:52:04] Speaker A: There's just a lot of things that they do. And so I fell in love with the organization we started. You know, then we had our first event which we called moonlight because we were gonna let off lanterns at this like big party. And the first year was going to be at 1200 North Branch. And it's a November party. It happens. It's the Thursday always before Thanksgiving, which follows Breast Cancer Awareness Month, which is October. And the plan was we're gonna let off these lanterns And I'll never forget Adam Pines. Like, dude, we can't let off lanterns. I did some research. Like, this is, like, I said yin Yang. Like, I think it's a great idea. He's like, dude, you can get, like, in big trouble. You do that. I was like, oh, it's not a big deal. Like, there's what's over and cool silence. [00:52:41] Speaker B: Look at what we're doing this. Look at what this for. Like, who's gonna come here and arrest? [00:52:44] Speaker A: But the event ended up being 34 DE, blowing like 40. So we're like, can't let the land. [00:52:49] Speaker B: Like, probably shouldn't do the. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Probably shouldn't do the lanterns. But, you know, we raised a bunch of money then. You know, we just had, I think, our third or fourth moonlight this year. I think we've raised about $750,000 over the initial events. We are now the single largest sponsor forecasting for recovery. We actually beat Bass Pro Shops, who is the, you know, brand that I respect, which I thought was. Was super cool. [00:53:11] Speaker B: And. [00:53:12] Speaker A: And, yeah, so that's. That's. That's what the event is. And the event is. Is really trying to. It's. Right. It's not. It is real estate dominant, but we are trying to expand it and get more people involved in it. We've hosted at Beyond. It's supposed to be more of, like, a vibey, fun event, not like a stuffy, you know, typical. [00:53:30] Speaker B: Well, you posted on it, man. And it's also when you. When you start to talk about, like, you just fully immersed yourself into doing this. And like, you. It wasn't like you were donating a portion of your fee. Like, you're now the biggest donor. You're having these fundraisers for it. You're also thinking about, like, creative ways to market it. I see some of that in. In, you know, even though I. I don't know you until today, I haven't gotten to know you until today. I've always. I've been an admirer of, like, your branding and marketing in the marketplace. Like, it's all very thoughtful. It's like, well done. It's not lazy, but it's approachable enough where you're having a conversation. So how do you, like. I'm assuming that that's a very, very conscious effort to set yourself apart from, you know, on your website, I was reading you said, we embrace new tactics, data, and technologies to customize our approach to every project. The old way of doing business is the old way for a reason. So you're very forward about this is we're different this way than the stuffy old ways of doing it. [00:54:35] Speaker A: Yeah, we, we, we, we. One of our, you know, kind of, like, mission statements is Madison Rose tries to make an archaic business exciting again. [00:54:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:44] Speaker A: And when. When we launched Madison Rose, I recognized that there wasn't a strong use of technology. You know, there wasn't a lot of, like, there was no really use of social media. People weren't using videos, and I knew that people would engage more with videos. And I. And I saw that now my phone's ringing. Do we just ignore that? [00:55:07] Speaker B: I mean, we're just. We're brokers. [00:55:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:08] Speaker B: Your phone's allowed to ring. [00:55:10] Speaker A: And so, like, part of like. Like, the mission was to be more of a marketing focus. [00:55:14] Speaker B: Outdoorsman. Listen to three. [00:55:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, it sounds like crickets, right? It takes me in. Yeah. But, you know. You know, it is kind of a very arcade. I mean, if you just look at, like, how far. And what I saw was, like, how residential was marketing and how office was completely different. You know, like, you see, you know, how, you know, they were doing, you know, walkthroughs and stuff like that. And so a lot of that stuff inspired me to try to do stuff like that with Madison Rose. And now it's just, you know, it's. You know, we've done a lot of social media. We do a lot of these videos, but now we are adopting a lot of AI technology. We're using a lot of backend data. We, you know, we are paying attention to who's clicking and who's engaging, and we're utilizing that information to direct marketing through to them, and that is one way to differentiate. And what I feel has become a complete commodity, commoditized business. And it kind of pisses me off that, you know, what we do, it is kind of viewed as a commodity. I think there's a lot of asset managers out there that. Just saying, like, it's just a leasing agent. Like, you know, we can. [00:56:15] Speaker B: You can hire this guy, you know. [00:56:18] Speaker A: And honestly, I think, because a lot of the behaviors of a lot of leasing people, like, you know, some of it is. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:23] Speaker A: Is founded. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:24] Speaker A: You know, and. And I think there's a lot of people that aren't nearly as passionate about what we do as we are, and it's hard to find ways to differentiate yourself. And, you know, in. In a business that, you know, how many different things can you really do? [00:56:37] Speaker B: Dude, I watched. I've seen your videos, and they reminded me. I mean, this in a complimentary way they reminded me of a little bit of a high end residential marketing video of a walkthrough. Not, you know, again, I think that commercial real estate is very lazy in our marketing and I think some of it is like ego. I think it's like, you think, you know, some people in commercial think they're above that promotion brand, you know, or, or I don't know, they don't embrace it. But I, you know, I. We recently had Jeff Low sell our house and you know, and I gotten to be friendly with him and appreciate like even a guy like that who's been at the top of that game for 25 years is still very focused on his marketing and is doing more of the videos that he hadn't done in the past. And they were just so much faster to embrace the technology. It's so competitive. [00:57:26] Speaker A: Totally. [00:57:27] Speaker B: And we're getting hired for these big assignments. You see, like sometimes, you know, it's. [00:57:32] Speaker A: Probably why you're doing a podcast. [00:57:33] Speaker B: People are. People pay us for a lot of money to not be like. Or they pay us a lot of money to like execute an assignment, not be lazy about it. Like. [00:57:41] Speaker A: Well, and I also think we, I do think we are very creative. I think we are always looking to being to. To do what is the next. Next. What are people not doing? And I think a perfect example was drone tours. And indoor drone tours just had their fifth anniversary. [00:57:54] Speaker B: They do such. [00:57:54] Speaker A: And they, and they, they called us out because we were their first customer. Because during COVID when people couldn't walk spaces, we were like, hey, they're doing drones of homes. Yeah, why shouldn't we do it of office? And we know that, you know, brokers engage more with videos. Like we know that because we look at the back end data and. [00:58:11] Speaker B: But the old school way was like, no, you have to be there to walk them through the building. Like it's part of your opportunity. [00:58:17] Speaker A: And so we did the drones tours and boom, like that, that took off. And now listen, like, you know, that's the thing in our industry is, you know, when we do something, someone else is going to quickly do it. You can only do it, you know, it can only be a unique idea for very long. Like social media, the way we were using it, like no one was doing it at the time then. [00:58:33] Speaker B: But I think the market's perceptive to that. I think people can tell who did it first. [00:58:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:39] Speaker B: And I think that those people are also the ones that are. They're already thinking of the next first thing to do. So that by the Time somebody else catches up to the videos you guys are on, the AI and the click through, you know, it's whatever. [00:58:51] Speaker A: And that's like what I try to sell. And tell the asset managers, which don't aren't always like, you know, again, like, a lot of them just feel like, hey, like, I need to hire one of the big brokerages because, you know, frankly, you know, things aren't going great. And if I make a change right now, I'm not gonna hire Madison Rose, who, like, is this young, up and coming group who has a lot of younger folks. Like, if it doesn't go well, like, I'll probably lose my job. [00:59:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:15] Speaker A: But if I hire, you know, one of the big brokerage firms and it doesn't go really well, like, you know, maybe I don't lose my job because at the end of the day, I hired, you know, the biggest and what is perceived as the best. But I, I. What I like to tell people, they don't understand is we are building technology. We are doing things that we can move so fast because we're small, we can be nimble. That will take these bigger brokerages a long time to create. And we can get local, and I think that's important. Like, we love Chicago. Like, we can get local with social media. We can get local with a lot of things like these. A lot of these big brokerage groups don't get local. And they, you know, they have a big account for their company, but it's not like they have a localized account, which now we're giving them ideas. But, like, no, I think part of. [01:00:00] Speaker B: It is like, you also, when you're, when you have a smaller, more nimble shop, like, everybody matters a little bit more too. So when you're hiring, when you're giving people responsibility to be in an assignment, there's not a, there's not a thousand other people to dilute the brand. I mean, it really is, it really is a representation of your firm which carries your family name, your family legacy. So, like, I think when, you know, Entera has a. Some of that too, or we compete against, you know, larger institutional firms, but we've grown substantially. You know, we're hungry, we're like. And we have 20ish people. We've had 20ish people since I started. So we haven't grown by number. We've grown by production and doing things better and trying to think of the next thing to do. Steven's helping us with some marketing right now. So it's like, if I'm a Client, hiring a leasing broker, multifamily broker, whatever. Like, I'm wildly biased, but I would rather have the young hungry group. Also. [01:00:57] Speaker A: I think it takes a certain personality to go to these smaller groups. [01:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:02] Speaker A: Because like, we don't have the resources, we don't have the relationships, we don't have like, we don't get spoon fed anything. It's not like someone calls me one day and like, hey, we have a relationship with Blackstone. Would you like to pitch like the Willis Tower or like, whatever. Like we, we don't have that. Like, and I think for us to be able to recruit someone to come over, they got to bet on themselves. [01:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:22] Speaker A: And if you're not good at what you do or like, you're probably not going to bet on yourself. Right. I mean, in my opinion. And if you look at, you know, look at JF McKinney and look at Telos, you know, those two businesses were small boutique leasing companies. And I think by far the best Chicago has ever seen has come out of those two groups. And they were boutique and they're small. And I think they had the best talent. And I think there's a reason why obviously leadership is important, but you're getting people who believe in themselves, who are betting in themselves, who are not afraid to go to a place where they're not going to get spoon fed anything. And, and I think there is just a personality that it takes to go and make a decision to go to a company like that. [01:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah, dude. And also paved the way for, for Madison Rose to have, you know, you know, if the market sees that the most active brokers in the marketplace are working at these boutique shops, maybe you don't have to sell through the high R Us versus the institution as much. [01:02:22] Speaker A: I mean, I wish that's same dude. It's still, it's still a struggle. And you know, you still see, you know, projects go away that, you know, you felt that you probably could do, could have done better. But. Yeah, but anyways, I mean, it's, you know, it's. I kind of like in a sick way, like it to be harder. [01:02:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:42] Speaker A: I, I haven't like, I haven't hired one person at Madison Rose who has leasing experience. Not one, not one person at our company came from leasing. And that is something I'm really. [01:02:55] Speaker B: When it's hard, you have an opportunity to show your value. I mean, like, when it's hard, you know, you can't get automated out of a job. You know, it's like when it's easy, everybody you know, the market bails out a lot of lazy business. [01:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I, I again, I think leasing young person's game, I think, I think, you know, bringing people in with, with, with specific skill sets and teaching them the business as opposed to just being legacy in the business is again, something I wish the people were trying to get to hire, hire us, paid attention to. [01:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:23] Speaker A: But again, I still think, you know, right now it's, you know, no one wants to take a lot of risk. And so it's, it's, it's not easy to, you know, to, to rip buildings from people right now. And you know, but I'll tell you, I mean everyone, everyone has a lot of fun doing what we do. [01:03:37] Speaker B: Well now everybody heard what made makes you tick. Your phone's gonna ring off the hook because there's millions of people that listen to this. We're gonna wrap with a question I ask everybody. But before I do, I wouldn't be doing my job as a host if I didn't ask you, you know, you're one of the authorities on Urban Office, which is like I'm reading and this might be a long answer. So do, do your thing. But like I, I can't really tell what's going on even as somebody who's in real estate. But like kind of, yeah, I'm obviously not in the office world, but I'm interested on the periphery as it relates to the city. And also just curiosity. But like, what's up with like are people still working from home, you know, and talk to us about the classy office stuff that's like, that we like. [01:04:29] Speaker A: To work on functionally? [01:04:30] Speaker B: Absolutely. Is that all dead? Is it working from home also, like nobody talks about how much you snack when you work from home. That's one of my beefs. I snack like a mother. Like when I'm at home, I just snack. [01:04:44] Speaker A: Weekends is like a throwaway. [01:04:45] Speaker B: It's never in the equation. It's a factor. So anyway, I didn't mean to answer it for you. [01:04:51] Speaker A: No, it really is, you know, I mean that you, that I mean you're right. That could be literally a one hour answer. I'll take it kind of quickly high level. Let's just talk about this last quarter. Our company tracks KPIs and you know, one of the things we track is the amount of tours we do. In the first quarter of last year, I think we had somewhere around 75 tours. First quarter of this year, we've had over 275 tours. So in terms of just tenant Demand. [01:05:23] Speaker B: Is that translating is the ratio converting the same way. It always. [01:05:26] Speaker A: It's just, it's just to me, that just shows how much activity is out. [01:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:05:29] Speaker A: You know, and we also track proposals and what goes lease and. And you know, I don't have all those numbers in front of me, but just in terms of activity. [01:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:37] Speaker A: And tenants looking at space again, at least our company is almost like 3x what we saw in the first quarter of last year. [01:05:47] Speaker B: Last year, too. [01:05:48] Speaker A: Last year. Yeah, last year. And I think, you know, just talking to a lot of tenant brokers, I think a lot of people will agree that we are seeing a significant return to work. [01:05:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:58] Speaker A: We are seeing major companies kind of pioneering this. And I think when you see, you know, large companies like JP Morgan and, you know, I know a lot of it's been led by banks and now Amazon and these companies that companies that people respect, it's much easier to get your people to go back to the office when there's kind of a precedent being set. And I think, you know, a lot of companies put themselves in a real tough spot by offering like full remote. I think it's one reason why tech, which is now, you know, talking to Brad Surratt and Tony Cogs at, at cbre, who, you know, you know, are really the tech guys of Chicago in my mind, that they are starting to see this resurgence in tech. And I always thought that they would be the last to adopt the back to work because they were the ones with the most progressive policies in terms of work from home. [01:06:42] Speaker B: Sure. [01:06:43] Speaker A: And so we're starting to see that happen. And so once tech is able to convince people to go back, then, you know, like, hey, man, we're, we're, you. [01:06:50] Speaker B: Know, you got to get like the ping pong table ready in the specs. Yeah. [01:06:53] Speaker A: So I. [01:06:53] Speaker B: Cold brew machine. [01:06:54] Speaker A: Well, you know, what's changing. You know, what's changing though is, you know, historically tech has gone to these big, wide open plans. [01:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:00] Speaker A: And, you know, I think if you planned in a wide open space, you probably can continue to work from home. And those jobs are probably always going to be working from home to jobs. Or in my opinion, those jobs are gonna be AI jobs. If it's a type of job where you are a one person per 120 square feet company workstations benching lined up. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker A: If that's how you used office and that's kind of how you worked, there's a high likelihood, like a call center. [01:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:22] Speaker A: That that job is, is probably a permanent work from home, job or you know, to me, again, like, I think that's stuff that is primed to be, you know, taken over. [01:07:31] Speaker B: It's not culture. [01:07:33] Speaker A: But, you know, we're definitely seeing more activity. You know, that again, there is a massive flight to quality. I mean that, that is real. I think the, the vacancy rate of the top 20 newest buildings in Chicago. I got this statistic from Transwestern. I'm quoting, I'm pretty sure it was them. I think it's between, you know, eight and eight and a half percent vacant of the top 20 newest buildings. [01:07:55] Speaker B: Okay. [01:07:55] Speaker A: And of, of that I, and this is not for. I, I think like high rise, you know, space is, is, is 2 to 3% now in any other market, any other time, you know, if our vacancy rate in Chicago got to like 10%, we build new buildings and that's what we do. I mean, like, I think that's one reason why some investors have, you know, tough time with Chicago. Because, you know, anytime we get, you know, super tight, like we did right before COVID Yeah. We put a ton of new supply in the market and you know, we're a prairie. So you can continue to build buildings. And you know, there's a lot of cities that, you know, are more development constrained. But in any other market, you know, you're. We're probably building new buildings. And I do think one building will go this year year. Hopefully it's our building at 655 Madison with the John Ball Company. But I think one building will go because there is so much demand for trophy class space and there is very little opportunity to get it. I mean, there is a huge flight to be by the trains. [01:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:47] Speaker A: And you know, I think a lot of people view the trains is the conduit to get employees back to the office if it's easy for them to get to work. Which is goofy, by the way, because 55% of people that commute from the suburbs drive. And the reason I have this stat is because 655 Madison is right on top of the highway. It has great access to parking and it's incredible driving access and it also has great train access. But the fact that a lot of these companies, and I think the stat was like 17 to 20% or people that are actually taking the metro. But like all these companies are making the decision based on, you know, a smaller population of their people, which I find a little curious. [01:09:20] Speaker B: And, and so the stats are getting skewed by the, the stuff that's kind of tired or functionally. [01:09:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So then there's like. Yeah, there's that there's a classy stuff. Yeah. [01:09:30] Speaker B: That I've read. I've gathered that the. I've glad. Gathered that the most desirable stuff is very desirable, in demand and is healthy. But like what, what's a perfect example though? I mean the rest. [01:09:40] Speaker A: That's Central Loop. We took over the building. Like Central Loop was a bad, was kind of a bad name. We. [01:09:45] Speaker B: We actually weird because I already, I already have like spun off my negative connotation of that. So like board of trade, when you bring it up, I'm like, well, you can't talk about the nice stuff, you know. [01:09:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:54] Speaker B: So like it's depends on who you ask. Yeah. But like. Sorry, go. [01:09:58] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no. I think listen, the class C stuff, if it's a class C building and that building ownership group kind of always relied on renewing tenants in their space, not giving them ti. So they never improve it. [01:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:11] Speaker A: Then they go through Covid and a lot of those tenants want to go work from home. And then so these buildings essentially get emptied. [01:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:16] Speaker A: And they sit on all this old space. And by the way, the way those class C buildings are capitalized is not in a manner to be reinvesting in those spaces. Right. And. And some of those guys at this point may, may have zero debt in the building, but you know, most of them still have basis and require. [01:10:30] Speaker B: A lot of times the people that have zero debt have zero. Like, you know, maybe they've lost your own money, maybe they've also lost the initial. You know, like a lot of people, even long term owners carry generally some level of debt to allow them to reinvest. So like zero debt sometimes is a sign that like, all right, you gotten a little complacent. [01:10:48] Speaker A: Totally. And, and by the way, what tenants aren't doing anymore and I don't know if they'll ever do it again. Is leasing kind of a shitty space because it's cheap, you know, because that's not conducive to get people to want to go to work and come back to the office. And I generally want to believe that and I do generally believe most people want their people back to the office. But what happened with a lot of these class C buildings is you kind of had, you know, class C style tenants, you know, probably not the best credit. They're bumping along the bottom. They're doing short term renewals or you know, they weren't updating their space. Then those tenants either go work from home or they go out of business or whatever. And now your building's, you know, 67% vacant and all the space that you have is old existing conditions. No one wants it. And in a moment in time you could say, well like 15 gross. And there was someone out there for 15 gross. I'll take this shit that needed the address. That doesn't happen. That is old days are over. So the class C stuff, honestly I think some of that class C stuff that, that has gone pretty vacant. If you have a new owner that comes in with fresh capital and reinvests in those buildings and you've seen what the after product R2, we're doing it and we're having a ton of success. We're river north, like we're having a ton of success in river north in loft buildings, you know, but it's, it's, it's either we had good existing conditions to work off of that we're reinvesting in those existing conditions through second generation spec suites, or it's demolishing all the old weird shit in building new and there's demand for that. But a lot of those buildings are going to be just stuck in purgatory for a while until they either get fresh capital, but the existing owners are not going to put the dollars. [01:12:18] Speaker B: Yeah, but I think it's at least healthy to hear that like the, the renovated product has a healthy, like I think people, you know, and I've wondered the same is like, is it just debt? Is it beyond resurrection? Like, because, because you read all these headlines about how doom and gloom it is and you're like, oh man, like what are they going to do to figure out all that office space downtown? And you're saying that as long as the deal is capitalized, right, as long as you have an owner with, you know, energy and a vision for it, that you have the tendency for it, you know, that the demand exists. [01:12:50] Speaker A: I'm also naive and I talked about the law of attraction. I feel that any building can lease with the right leasing strategy, with the right ownership group. Now different map stories. I understand basis which actually probably makes me a worse broker than I used to be. Right? Because those are things that I think, oh, just give more free rent, like, oh, $175 in ti. Like now, like I choke at that stuff because I, I, I honestly, you know, I, I know what that means for an owner and I honestly think the days of those massive TI's outside of a few buildings that are still doing it, I think maybe coming to an end because the People that are buying buildings now are not buying buildings in a manner to where they are going to give massive TI's. They're buying, you know, buildings at a, at a, at a lower, you know, basis that they're going to clip coupons on and they're going to be thoughtful and how they bill how they own. I think there's also a lot of owners that are sitting on buildings that listen, like, if I give someone, you know, 180 a foot, like I'm not gonna get paid back on that and I'm not going to put good money at bad. And my building is already kind of like bumping along the bottom. And by the way, we don't have any cap rate compression. So it's not like I can buy a face rate and go sell it because we don't have a capital markets or institutional investors that are buying that kind of stuff right now. So that that strategy doesn't work. So, you know, I honestly think for people, if you're buying buildings right now, Chicago is an incredible place to buy. We're the third largest market in the United States. We're 100 million, 160 million square feet. And I think, you know, Even if we're 25 vacant, you know, that means that, you know, there's, you know, over 100 million square feet of, of lease space. And you know, on any given year, you know, if you say the average, you know, lease runs seven years, you know, there's you know, millions of square feet rolling or like a mile by a mile, like there are plenty of tenants that you can put in your building. And by the way, the competition is not all that fierce because there's only so many buildings that can even perform. We have like probably 30% of buildings in Chicago are probably pencils down or like don't want to do a deal or can't do a deal. So if you're one of the owners that can do deals and you know, your building's not in total la la land or whatever, like I think you have the ability to, to be successful. And I think the fact that like you're, we're wiping out all this class C, like we're getting rid of all the noise. [01:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:01] Speaker A: You know, I think gives, you know, new investors or, you know, a great opportunity to have success. And you know, so I mean, that's again, that's my positive take. And I think Chicago's a badass city. We got fresh water. [01:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:13] Speaker A: If you go around our city is clean. Like you go to like Denver and You go to these other markets not. But like, I don't know, we don't have like people shooting heroin all. [01:15:20] Speaker B: And we have such like diversity and economy here too. I mean we have midwestern people that. [01:15:25] Speaker A: Big ten schools are being called big ten schools. [01:15:29] Speaker B: Why do you love Chicago as a place to live, run your business, invest, you know, you know you're talking to. [01:15:34] Speaker A: A guy who just like, you know, would love to move to Montana tomorrow. So it's like, so it's, it's. I get super excited about Chicago, you know, despite, despite, you know, where I would really want to be. But, but I love Chicago because I think one of the people are real. I think we are hard working people. I think the brokerage community in Chicago is top in the entire country. I think when I was at R2 and I got to go to other markets and talk to different brokers, I think the brokers in Chicago are superior to other. I think it's why it's such a competitive market and that goes to just the old Chicago way. We are workers, we're grinders. I think there's something to say about again, we have access to fresh water. We have a beautiful clean city. We have again great proximity, access to all the public institutions. Our weather, you know, everyone shits on our weather. You know, I'm a, I'm a big ice fisherman and you know, we haven't had great ice for the last five years. Why look at how many days we've had over 40 degrees. And I'm not going to get into global warming and like I won't go down that rabbit hole. But if you are from Chicago, you know, the last few winters, you're not out in your snow boots. No. And how many days do you have over 40 degrees? So you look at long term Chicago. [01:16:46] Speaker B: Like it also, I mean like Chicago, the first war like after it turns the first like it gives you the appreciation for diversity and weather is nice too. Like the cold gives you like the beer gardens are open now. The city's got such a buzz. [01:17:02] Speaker A: You know being in the center of the country is great. You know, I just, I'm, I was just in Whistler skiing and two airports. Yeah. And I was just thinking like, you know, I got there in four hours and like my drive and, and there was guys that were coming in from New York and they're like, oh gosh, like that flight was brutal. And then I was in Hawaii with my family and like again that's a long flight. But like if you're in Chicago like You can get pretty much everywhere in a quick, relatively easy, direct flight. Like, if you're on the coast, like, well, dude. [01:17:28] Speaker B: Or think about how, you know, you're a Midwest guy. Like, think of, like, how wide of a region Chicago is, like the mecca for, like, the. The. The thing that. The place where everybody aspires to be. Like, I grew up in Iowa. A lot of Big Ten grads gravitate to Chicago. But, like, if you're on the east coast in New York and it's Boston, there's Philadelphia, there's other. There's other cities that can represent the same type of opportunity. You know, if you're in the west coast, same thing, you know, L. A San Francisco, you could go further north. Seattle or Portland. But, like, Chicago, you know, like, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, you know, these other, like, kind of second. They're not the same. And so we pull from just such a wide area that Chicago represents this. [01:18:13] Speaker A: Like, we have a PR problem is what we have. [01:18:16] Speaker B: And. [01:18:18] Speaker A: That is like, a whole nother conversation. But I genuinely believe, like, man, like, why can't we get Tim Allen to do a pure Michigan campaign? Like, in the state of Illinois? I mean, I just. We have a PR problem. And one of the things that, you know, I say to people all the time, it's kind of funny that, like, you know, I have buddies in other states, and they will know the name of our mayor, like, in whether, you know, they'll know the name of the mayor. But I'll be like, well, who's the mayor of New York? Who's mayor of San Francisco? Who's the mayor of Denver? Yeah, they won't know. Maybe. Maybe New York, they'll know. But that just shows the extent of our PR problem is if, you know, it's always like. And I feel like we get unfairly picked on. I've been to a lot of these other cities. I've seen them during COVID Like, honestly, like, yeah, we have a crime issue, but, like, do any of these other major cities not dealing with the same. But why are we the one that's always, like, that's turned out? [01:19:04] Speaker B: We're called out. [01:19:05] Speaker A: Like, we're always called out. And I'll say one more thing, by the way. Food. And you brought up food. Our food is amazing. Our restaurants are amazing. And. And I know a meal in New York probably tastes better, or a meal and, you know, in la, overlooking, you know, the ocean, like, probably tastes better. But, like, you know, you know, when you think about our restaurants. And here's one more example. We can lick an end on this. But, like, my favorite restaurateur in Chicago is Brendan Sodakoff. Hog salt. [01:19:33] Speaker B: I think his arm it to jailhouse prime rib sandwich. [01:19:38] Speaker A: The date cake. The date cake is the best dessert on the planet. Sorry. Like, come at me if you want to fight on that one. Like, the day cake is amazing. But, you know, he has this restaurant in New York called Fort Charles. By the way, his designs of his spaces are just, like, beautiful. They make you just want to stay in them. I'm surprised he can even turn over tables in his restaurants because he just gets so cozy. But, you know, for Charles in New York, is. Is kind of like, it has a lot of the stuff that we have at Trevoli and Bavettes and like, you know, but it's like kind of all in this, like, little restaurant in. In New York. And it's one of the hardest restaurants to get into. And I've had multiple clients where people from New York being like, oh, that's the best restaurant in New York. I'm like, we have like, six of those restaurants. Like, like, like really, like, we got. [01:20:22] Speaker B: Like, six of them take out from that place last night. [01:20:24] Speaker A: So, like, Yeah, I don't know. I use that as like an example. And I know, like, all, like, the big foodies out there are going to be like, oh, dude, you don't even know what you're talking about. And I'm not a foodie, so, like, I'm not going to battle that. But, dude, we have. [01:20:34] Speaker B: Oh, I. [01:20:35] Speaker A: We have great food here. [01:20:36] Speaker B: I agree. I'm okay with ending on Chicago food. You're the man. Thanks for your time. Fun to get to you. [01:20:42] Speaker A: I appreciate. [01:20:43] Speaker B: I appreciate you. No, appreciate your story. Appreciate what you do for Chicago real estate. It's, you know, keep doing a great job, man. [01:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah, bud. Thank you. [01:20:53] Speaker B: Cool.