Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of the Real Estate Chicago Style Podcast. I'm your host, Joe Smazal. I'm a multifamily broker focused on middle market apartment buildings on the north side of the city.
I own and operate some smaller apartment buildings on the north side with my wife Kate as well.
Today on the show.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: So wait, you. You are a.
I know you. Have you done this before?
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Not. I mean, not. Well, okay, so you're still reading.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: When do you think you're gonna stop reading this thing?
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Maybe on the next show. Not today. I mean, not this episode. Maybe my second one that we filmed today.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Are you gonna change your shirt for the second episode or.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Depending on how hot it gets in here.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Cause, you know, I did a little research beforehand, and I think it would be, you know, if you change shirts, you might not have to tell people you're doing two in the same day.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Well, this is off to a great start.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Who am I?
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Ron Abrams, my former friend and client.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Why this is so early.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Silver Properties. Ron, thank you for joining me.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Thank you. You know, I said I went to deep dive. I started doing some research to come here, and, you know, every guest is like, how do you respond to, you know, thanks for being here. Is it. Thank you. Love being here. You know, big admiration to what you're doing. You know, I didn't have really good comeback, but thanks for having me. This will be fun.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: I'm excited for this one. I think that it'll be lighthearted, but I'm exc. Excited to also.
You know, you and I have talked a lot. We know each other over the years, but excited to get to know kind of a little bit more about how you started, what makes you tick, what you're working on these days. So it'll be fun. I am going to read the bio portion, if you don't mind, which is basically a commercial for you. So I hope you don't mind all the things that we're going to talk about.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: I'll listen. I'm, you know, I'm interested to see where you stole it from. I. I, too, want to get a little deeper with you.
Good. All right, let's do it. Yeah.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: All right.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Because I've been watching these on the deep dive, and I don't think you get enough time to answer some of these questions, like, someone should be interviewing you a little bit.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: I just told you that I'm. I need to do a better job of shutting up and letting the guests talk.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Well, welcome to the Ron Abrams Show.
Okay, go ahead.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: All right, we'll let it rip. So by way of introduction, Ron is, he's been in the business for Silver Property Group. Been in the business for 25 years plus real estate business. Been an attorney for longer than that, 30 plus years. I don't know how up to date those years are on your bio, but.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Most of your guys are like, you know, 28 you have on the show.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: So we got a range.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: We got a range.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: But you know, Ron's one of my favorite guys to do business with. He's communicative, fair, transparent through the process.
And I think a differentiator is you keep it fun, we keep it light hearted when we do business together and it's fun to transact with you. So you're born in Chicago, never left the state.
Business is based in the city, deeply invested in the neighborhoods throughout the north and northwest sides of the city.
You just told me you have up to date stats. Why don't you tell me number of properties, number of units. All right, so assets under management.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: You know, usually when I talk about this I have in the back of my head Gary Kass, who's a property management company, tell me, telling me I'm counting parking spaces and mailboxes.
Once when I had like 180 units, he called me on saying like I had 200 units. And to this day he calls me on every time. But I, so I went back and I actually checked and these are pretty accurate. I'm actually over 1500 units owned and managed where I have some sort of interest in the deal.
100 buildings, 1500 units. And we have got into third party management and we're getting pretty close to that 500 number. So. Gary Kass, do not listen. I would say we own and manage about 2,000 units right now in the city, about, you know, 120 plus buildings.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: That's awesome.
And you did the calculation for the value of those building?
[00:03:58] Speaker A: What do you think, you know, on a 2 cap?
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Well, we're broke.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: You know, Broker? Well, yeah, you know, you know, your, your pro formas don't include, you know, 50% of expenses. You know, who, who needs electric or gas. Right?
We're, we're about 300 million.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: That's awesome.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: So, yeah, I was telling you, I don't really do that kind of thing. I don't look at my numbers. And so I pulled up, you know, your spreadsheet and I was kind of like, you know, you're supposed to take a look back like you're supposed to smell the roses. Right. And, you know, I just kind of thought, like, where was I 10 years ago? Where was I 15 years ago? Where was I three years ago? And it's kind of.
I mean, real estate's a way to really create some wealth. I mean, without sounding arrogant or pompous, which Gary Cass will then tell me I am. But it. It is a low barrier entry business that has the opportunity to make a lot of money.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
One of the things.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: And it's kind of fun.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And you meet a lot of great people and you get to know the city very intimately, and it's just a fun.
It can be a fun industry. It can be a rewarding industry after you've been at it for a while. And then you look back, like you said, and, you know, sometimes the days are a blur. They beat you up, but you look back at it over some meaningful period of time, you're like, wow, you know, we advanced the business during that time.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Time really helps this business.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: I also love that when you're on the verge of saying something that could be construed as bragging, you have to, like, check yourself on what your friends are going to say about it. I have relationships with my friends. Like, is this stat worth what my buddies are going to say about it?
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Like, oh, my God, there's, there's, you know, I mean, we have so many sayings, you know, like when we go out to dinner or something, I'll pick up a tab, which they'll say I never do, but if I pick up a tab, they'll be like, oh, rounding air for Ryan. Or, or, you know, maybe later he'll just go in the couch and replenish his funds by pulling change out. You know, I mean, it's constant.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Well, I'll call him if you're. If we've got a gapped bridge on a deal, maybe I'll call them and have them kind of twist your arm behind the scenes about being too cheap on it or. So nice to know that we've got that hand or we've got card up our sleeve, I guess.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah, you can write this one off. You just pulled the information out.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: I cut off the bio. But you have in house brokerage, leasing, property management, construction management.
I think that's a differentiator. I also think it means you're vertically integrated. I think that's what you call that.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah, when I, when we started, I was doing a fund with the jab guys, or I was the in jab.
You know, that was like the, the great moment. When we did our deck page or our offering memorandum, we had a page, vertical integration. No idea what that meant. But, like, the dude helping us, like, said, you're vertically integrated. And we had a graphic, and it was, wow. I can say we're vertically integrated. So basically, for the last 20 years, I've been kind of explaining what vertical integration is.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: And it's important for your business because you've got. I mean, it'd be hard to say which of those divisions is the most important. They go hand in hand. And then when everybody's under one roof, everybody, you know, knows what the other is doing, and I would assume moves with a little bit more synergy.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Right. And once again, to, you know, double down and not be like, oh, you know, he just making a negative comment. And positive, you know, it's about control, you know, I mean, and I'm not a control freak. And I'd like to thank, you know, all our departments. We can talk about that later. Really pulling their own weight and really help each other. But having control over the whole process is really, I don't know, special.
I mean, it just. It's just so helpful in our industry. I mean, it just. It makes us move quicker.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Well, it does, because if, you know, use it as an example. I send you a deal, maybe there's upside in renovation or leasing or one of those things. You can just holler outside of your office and say, hey, you know, Tyler Marone, come in here, and probably within 10 minutes, everybody can give their.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: It's totally like that. I mean, like, you know, you'd think, you know, I mean, that maybe we're a bigger company or maybe we're not. Or, you know, maybe people have preconceptions of what it looks like. You hit it on the nose. I literally will find a deal. I'll be like, alicia, you know, what's a two bedroom, one bath? Getting in this building, which is like three doors down. And, you know, and we don't have an intercom system. We never have. We use our cell phones with, like, a virtual answer. So we'd use the telephone system in our office. Like, someone might be on the other side. I'm like, ask Steven, you know, what's the construction cost? And then someone on the other side of the office will yell for Steven.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: I mean, it's not the actual telephone system. The old school, elementary school telephone passed it down.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: I cannot imagine what people think of me when I'm screaming. My w. Wife is shuddering listening to this, because she's like, you can't Yell at people. I'm like, I'm not yelling at people. It's just like what we do.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: That's awesome, man. Well, that go, you know, the last part of your bio that I'm going to read and then I'm, you know, I'm done, I'm done gassing you up. But I want to read this word for is from here. Ron is fortunate to be surrounded by cohesive, good natured and long term staff that is highly skilled and prepared for the demands of the industry.
I, I've worked with you a lot, known you for a long time, I know a lot of your team members and I think that that's also a differentiator. Not only the vertical integration, having the different buckets, but you have so many folks that have been with you for a long time that are an extension of your, I don't want to say like you're, it's not like overly optimistic, it's just happy, you know, it's happy, it's fun, you keep it light. And I think that that goes a long way in our business when you know, especially in property management or leasing or brokerage, you know, you're getting kicked in the shins all day and you have to be, you know, with the folks in the office. You've got to be good natured.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: Look, I love, well, I shouldn't say I love but when there's a problem it's kind of fun. I mean, in some ways like to how you're going to creatively solve this problem. You know, I mean just somebody today was like the neighbor above me. I mean this is so, you know, down the, you know, three, two, fastball, just an easy one. But you know, someone in the building's like, you know, the person above, he's making a lot of noise and they're stopping at 6 in the morning. I don't want to live here anymore. And look, you know, we got to figure out what to do. Can we move her? Can we talk to the neighbor below? I mean, can we just let her out of her lease? I mean there's like a million different things to do and then I just like kind of dealing with these problems and trying to get an outcome people can live with. So I mean, you know, that's an easy one. I mean there's much bigger and weirder stuff that's out there.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: But, but when you have problems as a principal, as an investor, as a property manager, as a leasing agent, as an investment sales broker, it's your time to prove your value. It's your time to show what people pay you for.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: What's the cliche? It's always easy to be winning or it's, you know, you're always a good teammate when you're winning or something. It's when you're losing, you. You show your grit. I mean, you know, we have one building and, you know, once again, my friends will blow me up. You know, say, oh, one building I have 130 isn't doing good. One building's been a little tough. We went back, we had residential on the ground floor on School Street. I'm sorry, commercial.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: I mean, there's no reason there should be commercial on that. But, you know, traditionally there was some stores or offices and, you know, took literally almost three years, but we changed the zoning and we were putting residential on that first floor. But, you know, it's been such a process and time and money and lawyers and aldermen, but like to see it through fruition. And we're renting those apartments today.
It's kind of cool. And they're shared light because we couldn't get two bed. I mean, there's just like a zillion different things.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: It's been interesting. I mean, I'd rather have not happened, but it's kind of fun and interesting and. And challenging to do that sort of stuff.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Team learned a lot through the way. Going to get back to that look.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: You got like three bullet lightning roll. Oh, okay. So I was warned by your staff about this. I didn't.
Your staff. Your staff. Let's go with it. Come on. The staff.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. I'm sure my team let your people know.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. And Steve, you know, have if, if all these people could just back up a little bit. Okay. Really, I'm getting crowded here in this room by the.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Another reason why the two of us might be sweating by the end of the show. Just, it's. It got crowded.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: I know if my makeup starts failing a little. I mean, I told you. I mean, like, our hair, we look.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: A lot thinner, usually, or a lot thicker in real life, too. Our hair looks thin. I think.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: I got questions. It's on my notes. I got questions about that, too.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: That's super.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: All right.
What age were you when you became a devoted White Sox fan?
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Okay, you know what? I don't hate the White Sox like most Cub fans. The. The winning ugly, the Jack McDowell growing up, that was super fun. Like, I like good baseball. Okay. But I'm not a White Sox fan. But it's you know, it would be helpful because it'd be easy to park and get to your seats.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: But I have a photo that I could pull up for the benefit of those watching on video of you decked out in Sox gear. So I don't know who would wear.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: I don't know my brother in law.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: I don't know who would wear that if they were not a devoted fan.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: It was my brother in law. It's a little ode to my brother in law. So he's a big Sox fan. But yeah, I was growing up as Cub fan. You know, I do have memories, you know, growing up, going to the game. I actually met a guy on the Cub staff and I don't know how it came up, but I said, I said, I remember as a kid coming to Cub game and seeing Ed Crane pool hit three home runs. I think for those of you at home, Google Ed Crane. Yeah, there's like all these kind of references like that. But you know, we used to, I was very, you know, whatever you want to call it, middle classy, kind of. I shared a bedroom with my brother. How about that?
You know, it was a big thing to go to the Cub game and you know, we pack a lunch and we'd bring some drinks and we'd go to the game early and we get, I mean it was like, you know, at 8, 9 years old. Yeah, you know, we just started and do that and then, you know, eventually I was like, whoa, I'm getting season tickets. Like, you know there's another one. Look back like, like, whoa, I'm actually buying season tickets to the Cub. Like, I've really made it now. I was the way in the left field line and I was holding the chain le fence, literally foul in the left field line. But that year I think I went to like 60 games. Oh, that's too cool. It was crazy. And then we've moved down and then in 2018, I was like, all right. Every time there's a game, it's like a pain in the ass to find people to go and make and deal with this. And I had like 50 games and I could go a StubHub for any game and pay less.
So I gave him up. You know, I mean, maybe that makes me a little fair weathered, but no.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: I still love the run. It's a fun. I mean, I think embracing the sports teams, your local sports teams, are one of the fun things about living in a big city. And when they're doing well or they're doing poorly, everybody kind of rallies Together, either in, you know, in happiness or.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: This is the lightning round. Is this.
Wait, so. So what's your team?
[00:14:47] Speaker B: I've embraced the Chicago team. Cubs.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: What was your team growing up?
[00:14:51] Speaker B: It was a lot. I grew up in Iowa. It was a lot of like kind of pick a buzzy player and you know, I didn't really have a, like a deep allegiance to any college team. Yeah, Iowa Hawkeyes football. We watched basketball too, so. But you know, we're here like my kids, you know, we were talking actually recently about going to a. Both a Cubs game and a sax game. I think for young. When I got young kids, it's fun to go to sax games too, even if nobody cares. So.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: And what sports do they play?
[00:15:18] Speaker B: They play soccer, flag football and basketball. Are the three big and golf.
Those are the, I guess the four.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: And how many. How much mileage does your wife put on the car driving from all these different events?
[00:15:29] Speaker B: It's fun, you know that like seeing my old. My boys are eight and five, almost five and a half in a couple of days in case.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Wait, whoa, whoa. Time out. So you actually know their birth dates?
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Wow. Don't ask me. That's not in the light. Ask me my kids birthday.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Seeing them get involved in team sports has been a really fun thing.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Cool. Yeah, I know and I know that you're, you know, an involved dad and your. Your daughter's basketball in particular and coaching and stuff. So maybe we'll talk about how that. Yeah, kind of what you learn from. Not yet. Not in the lightning round. We've gotten through one lightning round. Question. Two real estate guys in five minutes.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Favorite intersection or corridor in the city.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: All right, so, you know, I did my research and I. This is a. Yeah, I see where everyone's going and I agree with somebody who said, you know, how do you not say, you know, Clark and Addison? But. But I am Catalpa, which is a great Chicago street, right? Catalpa. You know, if you say it in the Chicago Catalpa, one north of Foster, something like that. So it's between Lincoln and Western. All right. And so to my office, which is on Lincoln, if I'm on Western, that's my cutover until recently. They just redid it. It was a super wide street. I was like, why the hell is this street literally like six?
So you know, I googled, did a little research, actually asked the alderman at some point, but every time we went down there, I would tell my kids and you know, it's a shortcut for the Cub games. I'd be like, we're on Catalpa. You know, the. The widest street in Chicago. I don't know if that was true or not, but.
So there's two reasons. One is before there was a highway, Lincoln Avenue was the highway and Western was the second kind of highway. Yeah. So to get over and to start going north or south, I guess you had a crossover and that was the crossover spot. So they thought, hey, we're gonna keep this as wide as Western and as wide as Lincoln Avenue. And just between those short blocks, it was super wide. There is a second reason. Second reason is when they had L trains that turned around, they needed a spot for the trains to basically, you know, do 180. And so you need this big area to do the circle.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: So does the Brown Line would turn there. That's.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: You know, you're gonna get a historian on the show at some point. You can ask about it. But yeah. So Western, Lincoln and Catalpa. There you go.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: First time we've heard that.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: And I'm sure for all the thousands and thousands and thousands of people that listen to this are going to jam up your. I actually just had this honeyhole. And now you put it out in the universe.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: I actually just heard people fast forwarding on YouTube right now. I just, I feel like.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Or.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Or changing the channel. I just feel that right now.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: I feel that a lot.
Thin crust or deep dish? And from where thin.
[00:18:11] Speaker A: And once again, I did a little research. So I'm a suburbanite now. I live in Highland Park. So we're kind of a Barnaby's Malnatis, but I'll put Barnaby's and Malnatis. But. And when I was in the city, I was like, I am going to give them like one they don't have. I'm like, deep, dark secret. La gondola.
Okay, well, the problem is I just googled it today they've closed. They just recently closed. It was. It used to be on Montana and.
And Ashland and then they moved to the shopping center in Ashland and Wellington. I literally went with there with my dad. You know, 40 years ago. They were open for 40 years in Chicago. Great. Under the radar Italian restaurant.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Did you betraying them have anything to do with them closing? You think maybe you were the thing. Maybe you kept them afloat and then you left And I feel like, I.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Feel like that in Chicago all the time. Like you'll go to a great restaurant. Like, I just went to Alpina. Have you gone there? The Alpina Singh who's Sommelier.
She was on Check, please.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: No.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: And it's like 8:50 North State, so we just went there. A buddy of mine lives in the city is like, I love this place. Went there, had a great dinner. She's a great host, great atmosphere. And, you know, forgive me, but, like, I may not go there again or I may not go there for a year or two. And I don't understand, you know, in Chicago you have all these favorite restaurants. Like, it must be a really hard business because here's a restaurant I really, really like.
[00:19:32] Speaker B: Yeah. There's so many options.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And I may not come back. And, you know, in all the different steakhouses, like, you go to one, you go to the other, and it's like, you know, I mean, maybe that just tells you how great the city is and how many people live here that they can sustain yourself. When guys like me, you, other people aren't necessarily going in the same place every week.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it is, you know, a lot of people coming in town or, you know, you host your friends that are coming in and you take them to one of these places that you love, but you don't go.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Did you answer the pizza question yet on your show?
[00:20:00] Speaker B: I love Pat's on Lincoln Avenue. Also thin. Sweet. Also been there for a long time.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Sweet, isn't it? Wait, it's isn't West? What's the one in Western?
[00:20:08] Speaker B: It's like Lincoln Avenue Seminary, I think. Oh, just south of Diversity.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Well, do they have another one on Western? Is that Pete's or Pets or.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: I'll do some research if you have me back in about seven years. Well, we can check that.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Still running seven years. We're gonna be doing good. Okay, what's the best LLC name you've come up with for a building?
[00:20:27] Speaker A: Oh, my God. All right, well, the best one was when I was part. We did a little building with Frank Campisi, Ron Abrams, Gary Cass and Jim Jan. So J.
A C Cass, Jackass.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: So people write their checks to Jackass.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah, they write to Jac Dash Cass. There's another one that Jim came up with. I don't. I'm not promoting it. You know, we have street names, like on Lawrence. We'll do Larry East.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Bernard is Bernie.
You know, our most recent deal is on Bell Street. So they did Silver Bell. We had some other, you know, we had Big Bell.
You know, some of them, the young guys in office didn't want to go all out. They'll learn.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: I got to when I was Building a database I got, you know, you go, it's very boring thing, very tedious thing. And as a young broker, you really appreciate running across something funny in that process because you're just like. It's just, you know, just brain numbing work. But you run across one of your funny names and then you do it enough and you're like, that's one of Ron's for sure.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: We had Grace and Hermitage, and you know, my old partner Jim, who's a college buddy of mine, you know, not only could you. The name of it was Girmitage, Grace and Hermitage together. But you weren't allowed to say Girmitage like that. Every time you had to go Grimitage. And we made up T shirts with a pirate and a patch. And literally we're in a closing and he'd be like, he like, can you pass the paper? You know, you need to sign the LLC documents for Girmitage. He goes, I mean, I don't know if you know Jim well, but, you know, you can picture that.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
Let's say, what's one Chicago neighborhood that you're looking to expand in?
[00:22:21] Speaker A: All right. Avondale.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Cool. Yeah.
How many times have you hit your head walking through boiler rooms?
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So once again, I'm dropping Gary Cass's name too much. I wish I could get something out of this. I guess I get fishing with him, but he has a boat and they have the pole rods on them.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: And my job is, before we go out fishing, to put the noodles on the fishing rod things and the guys on the boat, you know, Mark, music's a big one. He loves counting how many times. And we do it over under how many times. I'm gonna hit at but boiler rooms, I'm pretty good, but yeah, it, it, I'm pretty good because look, you're going in a basement, you know, the ceilings are gonna be low. But I do hit my head.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Yes. I hit my head all the time too. And I'm not astal as you. Yeah.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: I'm only six one.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: Name an up and coming Chicago real estate professional that you think deserves some recognition.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm.
I'm not kind of in the loop. Like, I mean, I'm all of a sudden kind of becoming that like, older guy, you know, I'm 56 and I mean, there's a lot of guys out there that I see kind of doing this stuff. And like your brokers that are out there, I mean, you know, I have guys, you know, Tyler and Robbie in my office, you know, and with super, you know, we touched on before, it's super exciting to see them starting to buy buildings. You know, Jim and I always said if we didn't go to law school and we just started building, buying buildings when we were 21, I mean, like, you know, that would have been pretty awesome. And instead we went to law school and we practiced some law, and we kind of wasted 10 years of Runway. It's just time is such a help in this real estate world and owning apartments, you know, maybe flipping or. Or condos, maybe not as much, which is kind of where I started. But so, you know, I wish I could tell you there's some up and coming. I mean, the guys you've had, I mean, Shane Rockman's great, and I'm thinking of another guy.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: I mean, I'd say Tyler and Marone, not to answer it for you, are two guys that I look at.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: Oh, thanks for saving me.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Marone, my partner, I mean, he's a stud. I've known him for a long time. And he's worked with you for a long time.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: So Marone's our head of property management and actually a partner now in their management company.
And just, I mean, he works really hard, he works efficiently. He's got a great crew, like everyone's buds. I mean, you know, going back to this, I mean, when I started, I mean, I know guys in this industry who yell. I mean, I, you know, I don't understand how that works.
[00:24:50] Speaker B: Well, why don't we kind of go out, you're through the lightning round. Why don't we start there? Why don't we talk about how you look at mentorship with the guys in your office.
Guys and gals in your office, and maybe touch on something that you think you did well, when you look back at the beginning of your career and maybe think of an example of a pitfall that you made or something that you could have done after earlier talk about mentorship in your office.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, look, I want the jobs to be 9 to 5. I really believe that people should have a life outside the office. And, you know, a lot of our people actually work near the office, which is like a giant bonus. I don't specifically hire people because they're close, but it's certainly a bonus. And, you know, if you're not driving, you know, when I was a lawyer, I mean, it could be driving. I mean, if it was construction now, I'd be driving forever, which is a whole nother story. But, you know, driving an hour each way, you know, Two hours and I don't know, it just, just cuts into your whole life. So number one is, I believe our job is nine to five. Obviously the managers have stuff that come up on the weekends and there's you know, extra extraordinary circumstances. But I think that's a number one in our office. Get your job done if you show up. You know, today I showed up the office before 9 o', clock, you know, bad day for a lot of people but you know, show up whenever. I mean like, you know, I mean if you're going to show up 9:05, I'm not going to bust your, you know what I mean? You know, nine, ten, you know, just get your work done. You know, if you stay till 5:10, that's great. If you have to leave early, if you have a vacation, you're going to have to take an extra day. I mean, so I, I think our culture, which is kind of a newer word, I never heard that when I first got a job as a lawyer. I think our culture is just get your job done and be relatively pleasant about it and don't be grumpy and if you got a problem, let's talk.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the LinkedIn and social media as it is, it lends to like this like hustle culture. I don't know if that's like what it's called but, but like everybody bragging about, you know, waking up early and how many hours a day they put in and you know, there's definitely something, something to hard work when, especially when you're starting and, but there's a real burnout associated with that.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: How are you? How are you doing today?
[00:27:06] Speaker B: I am active but available.
So that goes to your busy. No, I'm not. Yo, that's you, you checked me on that. And I've thought a lot recently about like what do the next 10 years look like? And if you're just on, if you're just, if you don't have a minute to spare every day and if you have to wake up at 5:30, you have to be the gym, you have to walk your kids to school, you have to, you know, have 11 hours of productive work through the day.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: It's just, I mean you hear stories of super successful guys and they're like, oh, I carve out this for my kids or I carve out this for my kids. But like, I mean I never thought I'd be 56 and saying this like, you know, the perspective is crazy. Like I got to go to every one of my kids games.
I went to every one of their plays. I went to every one of their dance recitals.
I didn't like it. But, you know, sometimes you had the.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Cubs game going here.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: It was. I mean, there was one that somehow, like, my kids were in every, like, every, like, dance. Like, there's 10, 12 dances. One of my kids had three girls, and I still do. We're in, like, every dance afterwards. They're like. Like, ron, how much are you paying in dance lessons? You know, it was like. And, you know, my oldest will tell you that both of them. They'll all tell you this was not their thing.
[00:28:22] Speaker B: Well, so you can. You can be successful in an industry and you can have a life outside.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: Maybe because it's important, but maybe not. I mean, if you're a corporate lawyer, I get it. I mean, if you're. I mean, there's a million things we can say, you know, if you're a doctor. I mean, look, this is a real.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Estate podcast, so most of these folks are real estate.
[00:28:38] Speaker A: They're not doctors.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: I don't think so. I think they have better things to do.
[00:28:41] Speaker A: I think. I think kudos to the people watching or listening that they've chosen a profession that gives them some flexibility. And I think, whether they know it or not, because, you know, we'll talk about this probably later, too. I don't really have a plan. I mean, I. I got lucky. I was a lawyer. But, you know, this is an industry. I would hope that you could have a lot of flexibility.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. And I think that it's important for, you know, even if it feels out of balance at the beginning, which maybe it. It did for me. And to be honest, I'm kind of glad I was out of balance at the beginning. Before I had kids and before I was.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: What'd you do before?
[00:29:17] Speaker B: Before I had kids?
[00:29:18] Speaker A: Before.
Go out to the bar?
Met a lot of women?
[00:29:21] Speaker B: No, no, no.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Before real estate.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: I was in medical sales for a couple years. Years. And that wasn't. So that profession wasn't particularly out of balance. But I worked for a guy who's an awesome entrepreneur, and I learned a lot. And I also learned that I didn't want to work in the medical.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: By the way, I just put this because I was going to wear this. I thought it would be funny to have swag.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: You can.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: No, I don't want to wear. I didn't want to wear. Some of your guests had so much swag. I was gonna make jokes, but now it's been sitting here for 30 minutes. I'm like.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: A water bottle commercial.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: Oh, I know, Steve.
[00:29:55] Speaker B: It's gonna be Foxtrot.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Yeah. What do you mean? He's gonna. He's gonna patch this over.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Not a Coors Light in case anybody sees.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: He's gonna put your face on this when he's photoshopping all the, like, white specks of your mouth.
[00:30:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think if you're gonna. If you're gonna be out of balance, be out of balance before you have as many demands on your time outside of work. And then put your time in at the beginning so that, you know, you. You reach a point that you have, you know, if you have. If you choose to have kids, but if you don't, you can travel more, do whatever.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: So is that wrong? I tell my third daughter that I only wanted two kids. Is that bad parenting?
[00:30:29] Speaker B: I think she'll have to. I'm hoping that your daughter's Insta dad here. This is. This is the Insta dad on Instagram.
I'm hoping that we can establish a new demographic for our viewership because I don't think that many, you know, young adult viewers.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: I am here to boost your 16 to 24 year old girl listening ship.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: I have no relatability. I have nothing to.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: I was gonna wear this shirt.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: What fucking size is that?
[00:31:01] Speaker A: It's 3X.
I saw it at Walmart.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: It's Ariana Grande.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: For those tuning in on sponsors, I got wicked shirts.
So when I coach a basketball, I try to. I have kids. Camo Wednesday. I have a lot of gear.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: That is awesome.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: All right. I don't know. I got some other stuff still.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: I have no idea. Oh, okay. So when you're thinking about mentorship in your office, give an example of something that you say, hey, do as I did. And then say, you know, look, this is something that you could improve on from when I was starting.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: I'll be less wordy. I think, just go for it. Like, I mean, I did a lot of stuff that didn't work. You know, I did personal injury litigation, and you know it. Not that I failed, but I didn't understand how to do it right. Or, you know, I filed 100 cases immediately. It took me eight years to unravel, like, just doing everything.
I had a towing company guy I met, Mike Milovich. What a great Chicago name. So we're trying to figure out a name for the towing company, and we're like, milovich Towing. You know, it's perfect. And then, you know, and we tried to do that, and when we had a contract with Citi. And we didn't understand why we were weren't getting any business from the city. And turned out it was like during this Silver Shovels thing. And apparently I kept myself out of jail by not paying to play. So, you know, but we didn't get any work.
But. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just. I think it's. Go for it. Like, you know, what's the worst can happen? I mean, lose all your money like I did in 2008, but, you know.
No, but look, the risk is low when you're younger.
[00:32:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. And time is an incredible variable to have on your side.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: My old business partner, Sam Gross, who I stole on buildings with. Yeah, I shouldn't say my old business partner. My partner, it's one of his biggest adages. His time will heal all wounds in real estate.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
Let's take a step back. You've touched a little bit about, you know, you started as an attorney and that was. You got into real estate by way of practicing law and just some. But tell us a little bit about growing up in Chicago and then how you found your way, you know, and why you got into real estate.
[00:33:11] Speaker A: All right. And, you know, I didn't really prep for this. I don't think a lot about it, but, you know, I grew up very middle classy, you know, in Deerfield, you know, had a great childhood, had tons of friends, played Little League baseball, played basketball.
[00:33:23] Speaker B: You had a lot of friends?
[00:33:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, I was always the biggest kid. I was always the biggest kid.
[00:33:28] Speaker B: You just needed a center for the.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: Basketball team in those days. You really did. I mean, like, the center was a center. And.
Well, we'll talk about shooting later. But, yeah, great, great childhood. Loved high school, loved college. I mean, there was, like, no awkward. There was. There was no friend groups. I mean, I don't know if your kids are old enough yet for this, but with the cell phones and the group chats, I mean, really brutal. Like, I don't even. I mean, I don't know how you get around it. I mean, once again, that's. That's a different podcast I'll be on tomorrow on Finding youg Way for Children.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Cut that. No promoting other podcasts.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm not gonna be on another podcast.
I used to do that when I was on this radio show. Someone would call and I'd be like, oh, you've reached the marital assist line. They're like, what? This is a mortgage show? I'm like, well, I'm happy to give you Marital advice, but. All right. So.
So growing up. So I grew up in Deerfield. Very, very happy. Loved Deerfield High School.
[00:34:20] Speaker B: Had a lot of friends.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it was good, you know, the old. I mean, I think, you know, my dad probably said I played in the alleys, and we played stickball, and we played wiffle ball, and when it got dark, our mom screamed for us. But it was kind of like that in my generation still. We played in the backyard. There's a guy who's got a radio show in Madison. He. He brought me up the other day. We had a wiffle ball league. And the. The place we played in my backyard was Abrams spelled backwards, the Smarba Dome. I mean, like, it was great. And so, you know, I went to college. I went to U of. I was in a fraternity. I. I worked at a bar at one point. You know, I mean, it was, like, all good. You know, I knew all the basketball players of the Flying Align. I scrimmaged with them. I wasn't good enough to play basketball at Big Ten for a Final Four team. Hard to believe.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's a high bar.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: Been dunked on by a lot of professional athletes.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: That's a good claim to fame. Yes.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: Here in the room, Nick Anderson.
I don't know. You guys are all still too young, but Nick Anderson was.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: Nick Anderson played for the Magic.
[00:35:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:17] Speaker A: He's flying along. I played with Shaq in the Magic, and I'm playing with him, and I thought the ball was going out of bounds, and I kind of glance at him, like, start running the other direction. Next thing I do, I see the arm at the top of the box, and just, boom.
It's like. I mean, so after college, my dad was a lawyer, and I didn't really know what to do, and so I went to law school. Like, I didn't have these great dreams of being a lawyer. And as you can see, I like to talk, so thought I'd be a litigator. My dad didn't litigate, so, you know, I started learning. I went to DePaul Law School, stayed in the city, lived in the city.
Law school was great. I didn't do particularly well in law school, but, you know, it's hard. It's hard to graduate from law school in the bottom quarter of the class and still get your degree.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: So there you go.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: But, you know, I worked for my dad, and then I started my own law firm. I did some real estate. I did bankruptcy, which I really liked.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: You know, because you could solve someone's problems for 800, $1,000. Like, wipe out hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. You weren't charging hourly rates. It was like, affordable. It was like a good experience, kind of like real estate. It was a good experience being a lawyer in bankruptcy.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: Interesting. I don't know if you're being sarcastic.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: No. Chapter sevens and thirteens. Very. I love doing them. And then got into real estate a little bit. And to speed up the story, I did a building with Jim, Jan and this guy Brad Beatty. Jab, jab. And Sean Conlon gave us the building. I do a Sean Conlon imitation, but I don't want some Irish guys to come and rip my head off after I leave the building. So I won't do it here.
But he found us a build. Actually, we found it, and then he called and blew us up. He said, I'm working with you, you know, don't you buy buildings without me? You know? And we did our first one, and then he gave us some others. And we built some three flats and flats and did a lot of condo stuff since you were selling them. So we sold them ourselves. That's when I stopped playing golf, when I started working on the weekend.
Wow, this is way too long. This is.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: No. Okay, so. So what about me?
[00:37:09] Speaker A: Obviously.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: What about. No, I was trying not to. It's.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: I know. So. So I got into real estate after being a lawyer. I was wearing shorts to the building in the morning. I went to the office in the Loop down the street, changed into a suit, went to my court call at 9:30, went to the buildings in the afternoon, changed back in shorts, put on a sport coat and pants in the afternoon to do depositions, went back to the buildings, and it was just did that for five or six years.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: What'd you like about real estate that. That made you focus on that versus.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: Well, one, I was making as much money in real estate as I was being a lawyer with. With, you know, working less, number one.
Number two is it probably isn't a positive to real estate. It's a negative to being a lawyer. In those days, I was doing personal injury. I felt like the people who were hurt weren't getting compensated properly. And the people who weren't hurt always were complaining and wanted more money. And the personal injury attorneys, there wasn't like a fraternity of guys, like people were competing for cases. So like all the, you know, at the time, I felt, you know, that U.S. plaintiff attorneys weren't very congenial. And then the defense attorneys, you know, our defense attorneys, they're against you. So just as an industry, I just, just didn't love it.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: Well, real estate, like you said, it provides an incredible opportunity for like a low overhead way to start your own business. And you had gotten a taste of it while you were doing.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: And the guys are great. I mean, like we went to this event the other night for the nboa. I mean, like, you go from place to place and you know all the guys and everyone's asking you questions and like I can call guys in our industry and ask them like, like, I don't know who's a good plumber or like, you know, where are you getting your drywall these days? Or screws got really expensive, you know, I don't know.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: But how do you think this is again, out of kind of the order that I had outlined this, but because.
[00:38:53] Speaker A: You know, when you were alcohol, I.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: Was not the case. But when you think of the N.B.O. and you think of that network around our business and you know, I know you're one of the leaders of the Edgewater Uptown Builders group, and I've gotten, I don't know, more involved, more willing to share my opinion for the sake of advocacy for housing providers in the business.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: I mean, people don't listen, but it's all right.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: It's therapeutic to say it because I have perspective as a broker and talking a lot of people and I have a perspective that's, you know, a little bit unique and that it's, you know, kind of a mom and pop housing provider. So how do you think of the NBOA as.
And what do you think that the. The group could do, could do better to be. You know, it's a, it's a. I'm gonna be. This is a rambly question. Now I have to clarify it.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: Well, I'll just make up an answer.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: It's an important time for advocacy for like responsible housing and good housing providers. And the people that are at those groups are generally of that category.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: I've been involved with the Chicago Realtors. I was a lobbyist for them. I mean, I guess I. Not technically lobbyist, but I was a lawyer. I was volunteering for them. I did, I was their treasurer, I was on their board. I was a government affairs chairman. I mean, I put a lot of time and effort in there and I saw very little change.
You know, we tried to get the RLTO changed and we tried to change a word from shall to May. And it was like a focus for so long and so much and, you know, we'd win a Little battle, like something we. I wouldn't say we won. We stopped something. And, like, they'd be like, oh, what a big win. And I, you know, in retrospect, I mean, I put a lot of time, effort. I don't think we move the needle at all, to be honest. And I think now is a interesting time with Chicago government. And, you know, I know you want to be positive on Chicago. We have a mayor that has a low approval rating.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: And this may be the opportunity here to say some things aren't working. So, you know, the first time ever, like, my tenants kind of understand that their rents are going up because of property taxes, because of government policies, because of money being given to certain groups, because of tickets, you know, unending tickets for garbage when people are fly dumping. Like, I write that in my letter, and I usually get, you know, you know, deer on BS or, you know, I checked your taxes, and they only went up 9%. You know, why are my rents going up 4? You know, whatever. Whatever theory they come up, and I have seen so little of that lately.
I really believe that our tendency and our population in Chicago is ready for, you know, they're not ready to move all the way to the right, but they're, you know, more moderate, liberal government.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: What do you.
You referenced the letter, and I think I know what you're talking about. But is that. Is that a letter that you give to a company, a renewal offer, if a rent's going up?
[00:41:52] Speaker A: So, you know, in the past, you know, I would send a letter and say, hey, I'm really sorry your rent's going up, but here's why. Here's why. And for a couple years, I just stopped because they knew it was going up. They didn't want to hear the same story again. And, like, it becomes disingenuous if you keep telling the same story.
Maybe it would have been good to be repetitive. But in the last couple years, I've started writing the letter again, and I'm just like, you know, I mean, you're voting for these people. I'm not. You know.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, the reason I wanted to kind of probe you on that is because I think that it goes to just speaking to a resident as a person and not just this, like, really sterile form and say, hey, here's your renewal offer. Take it or leave it. But if you add some context, here's your renewal offer.
You know, I understand that your rent, you know, going up 5, 5% as an example.
Unfortunately, you know, the cost of operating the building have increased substantially you know, as one example, or our assessed values up 20%, our water bill's up 15, you know, and. And I think that that treats the tenant more like a customer, that you're kind of courting for business again. And also teaches them like a. It treats them like a human. Where it's like, look, let's just have a conversation. You know, I want you to stay. You've been a great resident, but this is a business I'm trying to. It's a low margin business. Trying to make some money. It is.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: And. And, you know, I mean, look, the owner of a building is always going to be that rich guy and there's always going to be that barrier.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:24] Speaker A: You know, no matter who it is or what you think. I mean, you own properties, but, you know, I agree completely. If we can just try to bridge the gap a little bit and, and be sincere. I mean, the other thing we didn't talk about is inflation. I mean, people, like, understand inflation now. Like, they go to the store and stuff they're buying. You know, I'm becoming that guy. I don't know how much milk your eggs was. I was going to use that as an example, but. But, you know, they go to the store and they know they buy Captain Crunch every month. And it used to be, you know, 399 and now it's 549. They like, understand that things are more expensive.
[00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, hopefully they've.
[00:44:00] Speaker A: Do you eat Captain Crunch breakfast cereal? What's your breakfast?
[00:44:05] Speaker B: Occasionally, if you watch your breakfast or something, maybe late night Captain, what's your breakfast? Cereal.
Cereal.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: What's your breakfast?
[00:44:14] Speaker B: Can be a douchey answer. Protein shake. All right, and then eggs avoc, and then chicken sausage.
[00:44:21] Speaker A: Do you take your creatine in liquid or peanut?
[00:44:24] Speaker B: I read that it's bad for high blood pressure.
[00:44:27] Speaker A: Really?
[00:44:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: All right, well, so hold on. So put your place. Put your finger in the thing because I promised you guys I'd ask some questions. All right. I made a joke on social media because you're like, oh, you know, tell me something about Ron Abrams that I could use in the interview. And then I said, well, tell me something about 125 pound Iowa Joe Schmazel. And I don't know, that used to be 125 pound, but from your response, I'm kind of guessing you used to be like a string dudes.
[00:44:51] Speaker B: True. Yeah, very true.
Grew up very skinny.
[00:44:55] Speaker A: And what. What was the big change? What do you do? How do you. How do you look like this? Where's the camera? How do you look?
[00:45:02] Speaker B: Like I have 100. Creative freedom. You understand? This is gonna be.
[00:45:05] Speaker A: That's fine. That's fine. I'm gonna.
[00:45:07] Speaker B: And then they're gonna come back, and I'm gonna be blushing and sweating. What happened when we were cut?
[00:45:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And then there's gonna be, like, the Lost tapes. This could be, like, episode 100, the Lost Tapes.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: Just Skinny Man. I wasn't a very good. I was. I was. I was an okay athlete. I didn't, like, hold up a neighborhood game, but I was never a very good athlete. I was never very.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: So when did you start working out? Like, when did you.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Yeah, in college. I don't know. Why? Just, you know, PRI at that time is private, to be honest.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: I mean, what's your thing now?
[00:45:35] Speaker B: I like exercise every day.
[00:45:37] Speaker A: What do you do it like? I go for a walk. I go for a walk, and I did. Someone asked me, what's your pace? I'm like, oh, 20 minutes. They're like, yeah, I don't want to walk.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: She's getting her out.
I lift weights three days. I do Pilates one day, and I do cardio.
[00:45:51] Speaker A: Crap. I just started Pilates.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: It's awesome.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: Well, when you're £300 is not so much fun.
It is so hard. I mean, like, you see this woman, and she's like, okay, let's try to do. I took a private. And she's like, let's do this. And I get on the machine. I'm like, I can't move my legs. She's like, what do you mean you can't move your legs? I'm like, I can't do this.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Or you just can't even get on the machine to begin with? Like, I don't. I can't get in that position.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: She was like, yeah. She's like, well, this can be interesting. I haven't taught anyone who's 6 7, but my dad's 7ft tall. I'm like, well, why didn't your dad do it? He don't fit in the machine.
I'm like, okay, just. Here's my $120. You know, thank you very much.
All right, back to your list. Okay, so you don't take creatine. You do any. You do any vitamins? Like, I'm starting to play with. Like, I take turmeric. I take a multivitamin.
[00:46:42] Speaker B: I'm really healthy. I eat well. I. I eat 80 healthy and 20.
I fun, you know?
[00:46:48] Speaker A: Okay, eat.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Going out.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: What about your kids? Like, how does this Translate to, like, how a meal at the schmazzle house looks like.
[00:46:54] Speaker B: So, you know, some of it's the same. Some of it, you know, like, if we're all having a family meal, it's generally pretty healthy, you know, trying to grill something and get them some. But they also eat, like, kids too. They eat. They eat the sugary cereal sometimes. And. Yeah, I'm not, like, coping weirdo about.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: It or my kids. There was cinnamon toast crunch. I had a. Although, you know, I'm a big dude.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Cinnamon toast crunch.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: Oh, my God. So I'm a big guy, but I've always been health conscious. And maybe I'd be like £800 if I wasn't. You know, genetics are a bitch. But, like, they had it in the house. I went like, they still talk about it, I think. I think I might have thrown it out the back or we're maybe we're living in an apartment I threw out the window. I was like, looking at this thing, I'm like, this cannot be a food for anybody.
[00:47:36] Speaker B: Oh. And when you see how much is a serving size?
[00:47:39] Speaker A: Like, there's 12 servings that load through. That's the problem with America. That's the problem with me. That's the problem with America. I mean, I don't think there's anyone in the history of Chicago that has had a single serving with pasta. No.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: No.
You know, but it helps. Like, the kids see, my wife's real active to. She. They see her and me working out in the morning. We like to set that example, and my parents kind of set that example and so try to do the same.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: I mean, we're getting way too philosophical. I don't know if anyone wants to watch this, but, like, I'm 56, and we had dinner the other night, and we were asking the guys, like, what did you think of your parents when they were 56? Now you're a little younger.
[00:48:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:19] Speaker A: So maybe your parents generation. But my dad would smoke a cigar. Never saw him work out. Like, he'd throw a baseball with me, Coach all the time. Never saw my mom work out. I never saw him take a walk.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: Like, you know, they make Mac and cheese for a dinner, and they throw a thing of butter. And, like, I mean, it was just. I mean, they weren't doing it because, you know, and they were actually fit. But I just. The whole mentality has changed. And, like, I just don't see myself being like them at age 56. It's, like, crazy.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: It is wild. You know, I.
You know, to think Back at my dad when he was that age, he had a heart attack and he was, he was, he hasn't drank is for as long as I can remember. And at the time, shortly after that I was like in college and drinking a lot, partying a lot, you know, here die.
[00:49:05] Speaker A: Well, there's not a lot else totally.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: And like, I don't know, I just, I looked at it as like almost too rigid, too disciplined. It's like, hey, you know, why don't you have a beer with dinner, you know, and loosen up with me. But then I saw, now I'm, you know, closer to his age then, then I was, then I could than I am the age that I was when he was that age. And I'm like, I saw him, you know, have heart attack when he was young and have cancer like 10 years thereafter and just hammer through it because he was such a hard ass and like so healthy all the time. Where I'm like, well, there's something to be said then for that level of discipline.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: My in laws are 86 and 90 and I just implore them all the time. I mean, and listen, I'm like, just walk. Just walk to the stop sign with your dog. Just keep moving. And you know, I listen to a bunch of books and tape and like health stuff and motivational stuff and I usually don't take a lot. I try to take one thing away. But like everything in all these books and the how not to die and the Peter Atias thing is like, just move.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Move.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: This is really real estate focus. We're killing it.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: No, I mean, whatever. Who cares? There's no agenda. I mean, there's no.
[00:50:13] Speaker A: I know the sponsor telling us how to do this. Seven people are going to be pissed who made it this far. Yeah, right.
[00:50:20] Speaker B: I mean, we're dealing with fairly low numbers.
Well, let's get back to real estate. So for a number of years following.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: You'Re sure you don't take creatine? Come on.
[00:50:30] Speaker B: I tried it at the house. It hasn't been taken because I read somewhere that it's bad for high blood pressure.
[00:50:36] Speaker A: Okay, you'll go with that? I'm looking out to your staff again. They're laughing.
There's a little bit of vomit in some of their faces, in their mouth. Okay.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: For a number of years following the GFC were focused on acquiring what people would call value. Add buildings. There's different ways to add value, but you know, more tired buildings that you would go in. You know, as an example, add laundry, add individual H Vac Renovate kitchens and bathrooms, occasionally convert, you know, a dining room to a bedroom. You know, set it up for modern housing trends and maximizing rents for that market. But for a number of years, that was kind of the model, right? Absolutely.
[00:51:15] Speaker A: It made sense.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: It made sense. So more recently, you've acquired a couple big deals recently, and both of them didn't really fit that bill in terms of the physical condition of the properties. You know, we worked on 117 unit portfolio that you bought for 22 million bucks. You just bought a 43, 45 million dollar deal.
[00:51:34] Speaker A: 45.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: 45 million dollar deal. 263 units throughout Rogers Park. That was in very good physical shape. So. So why did you pivot?
And then why don't you start with why'd you pivot?
[00:51:47] Speaker A: Look, I'm not, you know, I'm not a super smart guy. I'm not really good at spreadsheets.
[00:51:52] Speaker B: We've gathered that. You don't have to say that.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: That's the best thing you've said on this whole podcast. Mark that. Steve, what number is that? 30 minutes into this or whatever. They get it. That's the best.
So, you know, I'm self taught in Excel. I mean, like, I'm still using the sum. Like guys are coming around, I'm like pulling it down and hitting some and you know, I'm so lim on some of this stuff. And you know, my back of the envelopes throughout my career, like we, we barely, very rarely sell buildings. I sold the building and my partner and that kind of wanted to just get solid and make his money. And he's like, I do imitation. Sounds a little bit like Norm MacDonald, this guy. But he's like, he's like, oh, you know, I found your old proforma and you were $182 off on year 10. I'm like, what? So, so long story short, I mean like the back of the envelope kind of works.
[00:52:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: And the back of the envelope clearly was showing that we can't buy the buildings and spend, you know, the full gut rehab costs. They used to be 50, now there may be a hundred. You know, the buildings are still, you know, you can't buy anything decent and decent neighbor for less than 125A unit. You know, if it's not studios. I mean, do the math. 125 plus 100 is like 225. It just doesn't work.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: Is that really the difference between the renovation costs? If you were to look at a full scope renovation, would it, would it be 50 and 150 down, 100 now.
[00:53:10] Speaker A: So I've been, let's say about, I've been doing this about 15 years.
[00:53:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:13] Speaker A: Once again, I didn't check the stats, but in the last 15 years. Yeah, we were doing 35 to 45 when we started.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: And I firmly believe with, you know, getting the tenants out, having vacancy, having soft costs, you know, the whole kid and caboodle, there is absolutely no way to gut rehab. A unit for less than 100, air conditioning system, washer and dryers, you know, the city. Yeah, I was going to say I'm going to shout out the city one time. They've changed cast iron to pvc, which was great. Saved a lot of money. But it's just in the process, I just, I'd love to build something new. I'd love to gut rehab. I've told brokers this. I mean like you give me the land for free and guys are doing it, but I just don't know how to do it and make money.
[00:53:55] Speaker B: Well, you also glossed over a part of the process about the existing tenant base. And it's like, you know, not only like the building could be in total disrepair. You know, Sal was talking about this, Albuquerque was talking about in a property that he bought that was unsafe. I mean it was, it was not been there. Right.
[00:54:15] Speaker A: It was not shell casing is off the floor with the alderman and still. And got a lot of crap from.
[00:54:20] Speaker B: The rodent infested, insect infested, you know, ton of violations that are public, that are health safety issues.
And still, even if you follow all the steps, you can catch a public black eye from that. So that's that part of it. There's a cost associated with it, but there's also like PR risk and there's real brain damage even if there's no other way to do it. Like you can't, you can't renovate the buildings to that degree around a tenant base.
[00:54:51] Speaker A: And I get, I mean we get the pros and cons. I mean, you're up rooting. Some people have been there for a while. They look. Do you like to go to the store and pay more money for anything? Like if you, if you, they said you could buy that shirt for $10 last week and you go back to the store. Like, I really like that shirt, although it's nothing special, but. No, but if you went back to the store and then they said that shirt's 50 bucks, you know, you wouldn't be real happy about it.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: No, but it's, it's a weird dynamic with our industry in that, you know, you think about housing, you think about shelter as one of the necessities of life.
[00:55:23] Speaker A: Human rights.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: They say, okay, well, compared to the grocery store, nobody was like, you know, nobody post pandemic was saying, fill up your grocery cart full of shit and just sprint out.
[00:55:34] Speaker A: I use it all.
[00:55:35] Speaker B: There was politicians, like mainstream politicians or, you know, elected officials, not like radical saying, cancel rent. You know, it was, it was, it.
[00:55:46] Speaker A: Was actually rough and it was a little concerning.
I, you were on the same page. I had a rant at one time, I had a whole routine where I'm like, free milk. I'm like, I'm like, you know, where's the milk industry in this? When is. It's their time to step up? Let's go. Free milk for everyone.
[00:56:04] Speaker B: But so like, if we went around to the NBOA last week, NBOA is a Neighborhood Building Owners alliance or association Alliance, I think.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: Okay, Neighborhood Building Owners Alliance.
[00:56:14] Speaker B: So there were, call it a thousand people people there.
[00:56:17] Speaker A: You were.
[00:56:17] Speaker B: I mean, I think that 990 of those people would be what you consider like really responsible housing. I mean, there's a few bad apples. And it's the same with tenants, I guess, where there's a, you know, most tenants are good, but it's just, it's.
It's a PR thing that I wish our business could.
[00:56:37] Speaker A: So you mentioned tenants like. So my cousin Matt Yellen worked for me in the very, very beginning and we had like.
[00:56:43] Speaker B: I didn't know he was your cousin.
[00:56:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And he, I traded him to Cass for like a six pack early in his career.
And he'll love that. He doesn't know that. He thought it was a full case, but it was only a 6 cap.
But he's like, you know, there's someone like ruining our life and Maybe we had 200 units at the time.
[00:57:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:06] Speaker A: And this person was just awful. And he goes to me, goes, that's one person. You have 200 units. And, you know, let's say you have three or 400 tenants. One out of 400. That's not even 1%. It's 0.025. You probably couldn't figure out the math, but I did. Later.
Matt, do not watch this.
He's a great guy, but, but, you know, he pointed out to me, I don't even know if he knows this, like, the reality. I still use this in my office. Like, don't let that.01% ruin your day, ruin your profession, ruin, ruin your life, ruin your mental attitude. Ruin it for everyone else. It is 0.01% same as his owners. Like, everyone's, everyone's a pretty good dude in this industry. Like, we're not setting out to kick people out. We're not setting out to evict people because they can't pay. I mean, it's the last thing we want to do.
[00:57:57] Speaker B: Well, that's why I appreciate the folks who've been a little bit more vocal about what it means to provide housing in Chicago. The challenges, the margins, you know, like, and because I think, you know, you've been a little bit more open to like social media or PR recently.
Sal. Same thing. You know, Zucker does it.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: Michael Daniels go to college for that.
[00:58:20] Speaker B: But these guys. But it's important messaging. Because if we just, if you, I shouldn't say we're peers in that, but if the folks that are good in the business just sit quiet and do the right things, then, you know, the broader market is only going to hear from the doofuses and, or they're going to have, they're not going to hear all the housing providers that are out doing a passion.
[00:58:42] Speaker A: I didn't really think about social media in that way, to be honest. You know, it's a little bit, it's not vanity, but I hate it, to be honest. But like, it's almost a necessary evil. You have to put yourself out there. Like we talked earlier, do you want to promote anything? And I'm like, well, you know, a lot of people don't know we're doing third party property management. And like, you know, I'd go to these events and someone would say something or said, wow, I wish I could refer you this building. I'm like, well, you can. We're doing third party management. They're like, oh, we didn't know that. Yeah, so like, you know, that was kind of like, how do I get the word out? And I mean, clearly the way to get the word out is, is social media. So it's a little bit of a necessary evil. Now, everyone's best life on social media is a little troublesome. But, you know, I mean, I, I am like a male model on Instagram. And you know, when people meet me in person, it's a little bit of a let down.
[00:59:32] Speaker B: But, you know, another thing we talked about. And then we'll wrap up with kind of our couple of questions that I've been asking everybody to join. But the other thing we talked.
[00:59:41] Speaker A: I've never made it to the end of your podcast with other people saying.
[00:59:44] Speaker B: A lot of people, man.
So we talked a little bit about the last couple of deals you've done, larger than, you know, your kind of bread and butter for the 10 or so years prior.
Also more significant equity raises. And I hear about so many folks having a hard time raising money for. For deals in Chicago. And you did a $22 million deal and a $45 million deal with Chicago guys. Okay, so with Chicago guys, in the course of a year, seemingly. I did one of those deals was seemingly with no hiccups during the transaction. So what's your experience in raising money, and why do you think that you've been effective at it when other people have a hard time?
[01:00:25] Speaker A: Well, I guess one, you know, the younger guys are doing deals in my office, and they're having a little trouble sometimes raising money from family or friends just because of their age. I mean, look, been around for a while. My friends have become more successful.
They paid for their kids, colleges.
You know, where do you look? I think there's a lot of cash out there too. And like, you know, people, when I first started, we were giving notes for 20%. That was the market. We would just borrow money and say, you're gonna get 20% backed by the project. And we were able to make money doing that. If we did that today, we'd be crushed. So people's expectations have changed. You know, a 5 to 7% type of cash and cash return with upside down the road and, you know, we can show them through our experience or our past performance that there will be that bump at the end and they're looking at the IRR or they're like, all right, you're 10 years, or you don't even know when you want to sell.
Fine. I got nowhere else to put my money. So I think a little bit of the experience, I age knowing friends and family that have become a little more successful and then, you know, going to the next level of people who have tons of cash and don't know where.
[01:01:32] Speaker B: To put it, how much of it is kind of playing matchmaker with the right partner in the right deal. I mean, is. Or do you just kind of do that without thinking about it a whole lot?
[01:01:41] Speaker A: No, I mean, like, I mean, obviously there's, you know, people invest in restaurants because, you know, it's kind of cool, right? I mean, I think they like Chicago real estate, our investors, and they haven't become enamored with the physical building except for maybe this last deal that had some really real gems. They're more interested in our story, you know, the story that we are good at buying neighborhood buildings, we are good at providing housing at affordable levels that aren't subsidized by the government. They like, you know, like I said, the neighborhood, the bricks. You know, we're not buying frame buildings. I like these red brick buildings, you know, these courtyards. So I, I think the story is, I think it's the story.
[01:02:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
The last deal, the, the deal that you bought from an affiliate of the Pritzker family is $45 million, 263, was it seven or six buildings, something like that, high rises by the lake, you know, beautiful vintage walk ups in the neighborhood. But what the deal didn't have out of the gate to induce investors is short term cash or near term cash flow, I should say. Right, because they were run different. They were run like heavier on expenses.
[01:02:48] Speaker A: So yeah, I mean, what sort of.
[01:02:49] Speaker B: Like metrics were you solving for for your investors? Or did they just trust that it was a good deal because it was a good price per pound and they had your track record to rely on?
[01:02:57] Speaker A: I mean, replacement. We haven't talked about it. I mean, I'm replacement value guy now. So I mean to build any of these buildings, you know, one of the buildings we know from reading articles, the 50 unit, eight story building on Morse, that it cost them at least 40 million to build. We bought it for 11 and a half million. Doesn't mean the building's worth 40 million. But we couldn't replace it. I mean, even if we use different construction methods, even if we changed it a little bit, I mean, there's nowhere that we can get close to, to that number.
[01:03:27] Speaker B: That's an extreme example. But even if you look at the other buildings in that portfolio which weren't new construction, we don't have the benchmark of what they cost to build.
You can't build any, any apartment building in Chicago for less than what, 350 a unit?
[01:03:40] Speaker A: You know, it's the story again. I mean our story was that we have a track record of doing this. We have a track record of buildings literally down the street that we can tell them what our expense ratio. And when I went to the investors, I actually gave them, we use a property management software. I gave him a password. I said, here's all the buildings. You guys can look at everything we've done. Look at what?
[01:04:02] Speaker B: Are you embarrassed to have to admit what your password was? I'm sure you have a ridiculous password.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: I think we gave them access where they make their own. But for a long time with Sam Gross, 22, I had to recently change it because I thought I was getting hacked. And then I found out I wasn't and I'm really actually upset that I had a change.
Yeah, Sam doesn't even know that's my password.
[01:04:26] Speaker B: All right, I interrupted you. So you showed them behind the curtain and said, hey, here, look, here's how we're running them.
[01:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean like they were running at like 70 expenses and a huge payroll. I mean, they ran the buildings differently than we are. I mean, we're getting a little bit of gruff that, you know, maybe we don't have a cleanup crew there every day.
[01:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:04:43] Speaker A: But it's like not sustainable. I mean, like you can't run a building and have a clean crew there every day. And you, and you still want to pay, you know, less than $2,000 for a two bedroom apartment. It's just not possible.
[01:04:55] Speaker B: But if you're acquiring these buildings while below replacement cost and folks believe in Chicago, believe that people are going to want to live here long term, which I think if anybody is listening, that's actually out and about in the neighborhoods or lives in the neighborhoods or works in here like it is. They're very vibrant, they're very, they're showing all the redeeming qualities.
[01:05:15] Speaker A: I think it's about to change. I mean, we talk about the red line of Chicago, the institutional people don't want to be here. I, I'm a little suspect that that's going to change. But you know, I mean, once again we Talked about the 6% approval rating in the mayor. I, I don't think he's going to be around now. The question will be what it looks like in two years. But I, you know, I don't want to let the cat out of the bag. I think right now is a really good pre Chicago explosion.
[01:05:41] Speaker B: That's what I've been trying to say, man.
[01:05:43] Speaker A: Nobody listens to the look.
There's positives in Denver and Salt Lake and all these, I mean, and it's a different market and it's super cool and, and you know, I'm not a big believer in expensive high rise downtown stuff. I am a neighborhood guy. So I'm not talking about the vibrancy of Fulton Market or South Loop or Sterling's thing. I mean, I don't know anything about that. I don't know how the trickle down works. I know Chicago neighborhoods are still affordable. It's a good place to work live, tons of amenities. The, I mean, you can go on. I believe in the neighborhoods.
[01:06:16] Speaker B: I, I Love that. And you answered one of my last questions. But I want you to talk about. I've heard your.
[01:06:21] Speaker A: Your thoughts on my favorite member of One Direction.
[01:06:23] Speaker B: No.
[01:06:24] Speaker A: Okay, we got back to the 16 to 24.
[01:06:27] Speaker B: I want to, like, I want to hear you talk about property tax and how you think about property tax. Property taxes. Because most of the folks that you're describing that have an aversion to Chicago would describe that as the reason why they're spooked about investing here.
[01:06:39] Speaker A: Maybe we should just end this if Chicago investors are listening because they are not going to like my answer. I think we've been under taxed, people, I mean, people don't like to talk about it because who wants to admit we are under taxed. There are various buildings I have had in the past that I felt were a little under tax taxed. And I think it's now playing a little catch up. We should thank, you know, we got a nice boost for a while and, you know, if we have to pay some higher income taxes, it's just a debt that we have to pay. Now.
Now there are extremes and there's exceptions to what I'm saying.
And I do believe that we are getting some predictability in what. Where the taxes are going to be at two to two and a half percent of your gross.
[01:07:23] Speaker B: You've started to experience that, huh?
[01:07:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:07:25] Speaker B: Of the two to two and a half percent. Your purchase price.
[01:07:27] Speaker A: No, of your gross revenue. Or is it 10? I forget. You know what we.
[01:07:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:07:31] Speaker A: So rewind. What. What's the metric? It's not two and a half percent.
[01:07:34] Speaker B: So a lot of times fall within like, you know. Well, for vintage stuff, sometimes they're closer to 10%. And then like the new construction stuff, a lot of people are looking between like 15 and 17.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. Right. Maybe 10 to 15.
Two to two and a half percent used to be litmus.
[01:07:50] Speaker B: Well, but if you're looking at a portfolio.
[01:07:52] Speaker A: I don't do tax appeals anymore, thank God. Sorry.
[01:07:54] Speaker B: I think if you're looking at a portfolio, you could say, hey, you know, say that there's 10 properties. You could say seven or eight of these are within a band that most people would accept is normal. One of them we got whacked on and we're working on appealing. One of them we've just gotten lucky on and is below. But I think the problem is if somebody's looking at one deal and they're coming from New York and you're making a decision at a conference room table, you know, with a bunch of Smart people. You could say, well, we can't do this, because what if this is the one we get whacked on?
[01:08:23] Speaker A: Look, I've been very unsuccessful at appealing my taxes, so, you know, we've. We've got them down a little bit, but there's been. No.
[01:08:31] Speaker B: What people are begging for, though, is predictability. And I don't. I have not seen it yet, consistently.
[01:08:36] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:08:37] Speaker B: But hopefully we do.
You answered in that. Which I loved. You answered your. Why do you love Chicago? But let's end with what's a piece of advice that you'd give someone starting in real estate to either propel their business to the next level or just get started in their career?
[01:08:54] Speaker A: So it's kind of an interesting question. I wanted to always make sure. I've thought about this, and I always want to tell people, like, I don't want to be that guy who came up to me and be like, oh, you don't have any money, or you don't have a relationship, or you don't know what you're doing. Like, I mean, I think in every profession, there's always, like, some guy who comes up to you when you're starting and be like, oh, this is way too hard to start now. Like, the good old days were 10 years ago, 20 years ago. You know, too bad you didn't buy a building, you know, 40 years ago.
Too bad your dad didn't own building, give it to you. That's the best.
But. But. So I'm answering the question with a negative. I just don't want to be that guy who says, you can't be in this. So I think going back, go for it. I mean, like, there's always a way to do this. There are so low barriers.
Maybe. Maybe you can't do it for zero cash down. Like, you hear, you know, like. Like Sal's dad buying a building because you work there. And the guy's like, I want to sell it to you. I'll sell it to you on contract. I mean, it never happens anymore. Yeah, but there's other creative things that can happen. Or you can find someone to partner with, or, you know what? Give 90% to some dude who brings you the money and take 10%, take 5%, take 2%, whatever it takes. Like, you know, get your foot in.
[01:10:07] Speaker B: The door, go for it. Yeah.
[01:10:09] Speaker A: Wow. I never thought I was, like, a go for it guy.
[01:10:11] Speaker B: That was good. I liked that. Was there anything that you wanted to get off your chest that you didn't?
[01:10:17] Speaker A: I asked about creatine.
[01:10:18] Speaker B: We saw The Ariana Grande.
Grande.
[01:10:21] Speaker A: Oh, there is. There's one more thing.
There's one more thing. So before you had the TV there?
[01:10:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:10:28] Speaker A: And, like, these wires are driving me insane. Like.
[01:10:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:10:32] Speaker A: So. Yeah. So I bought you on the Internet, one of. One of these things. So this goes on the wall. It's great. And it'll cover up the channel. Yeah, because, like, so I like detail. Look, I'm not a crazy detail guy, but, like, I always tell the manager, I always go to the. When I go to a building, I'm like, this is always the manager's worst day, is when I actually go to a building and start nitpicking.
[01:10:54] Speaker B: Oh, the worst is on buildings. Fricking cable guys. And the. The.
[01:10:59] Speaker A: You know, the box out in the alley.
[01:11:01] Speaker B: Well, and then the cords that they run alongside the. These beautiful vintage building. Forget about having a dish that's another level, but just the cables running everywhere. This guy.
[01:11:10] Speaker A: Right. Butchers, Right? So, I mean, you go to a building, or, like, if there's a broken window or there's a stain on the carpet, like, I mean, it's hard. Look, it's impossible to be perfect in this industry.
You know, we try our hardest. We try, you know, and if I see something, I'm like, let's just put it on the list. Let's try. Go for it. So you got all these people looking at this TV with the wires. All you have to do is put the wire in there, you stick it on the wall, and then you won't even see the wire anymore.
[01:11:33] Speaker B: Damn. Okay, now we're on the next level. Thanks, man.
[01:11:36] Speaker A: You know, problem?
[01:11:38] Speaker B: You're the man.
